Imagine the team Czechoslovakia could have if they were still a country… [Archive]

e-e

02-16-2006, 08:54 PM

I have mentioned this before to. I believe if they were still one country they would be pretty dominate internationaly. probably better than us. or at least very very close. How crazy would that team be to play against lol. Who do you think would win? Canada or USSR

Elias Lang Jagr
Nagy Straka Hossa
Gaborik Vyborny Demitra
Satan Havlat Hejduk

Bondra, Svatos

Chara Visnovski
T. Kaberle F. Kaberle
Zidlicky Kubina

Malik

Hasek
Vokoun
Budaj

I just roughly threw those lines together (Havlat and Satan are out of position for starters), but as you can see, Czechoslovakia would be fierce.

during every international tournament we have this thread. :D

thenextone

02-16-2006, 10:17 PM

they are not a country for good reason.

Jazz

02-16-2006, 10:20 PM

during every international tournament we have this thread. :DYep, we do...

Want better hockey teams, let's put the Soviet Union back together....or the entire British Empire... :sarcasm:

Nemchinov13

02-16-2006, 10:23 PM

Yep, we do...

Want better hockey teams, let's put the Soviet Union back together....or the entire British Empire... :sarcasm:
It's a OT, but imagine how good the Yugoslavian basketball team would be?

shawn_kemp*

02-16-2006, 10:24 PM

Maybe Czechoslovakia would have beaten Switzerland with that fantastic roster? :sarcasm:

e-e

02-16-2006, 10:25 PM

It's a OT, but imagine how good the Yugoslavian basketball team would be?
how? :dunno:

shawn_kemp*

02-16-2006, 10:25 PM

Yep, we do...

Want better hockey teams, let's put the Soviet Union back together....or the entire British Empire... :sarcasm:

Lecavalier and Brodeur should play for France!!!!!!!! :D

yarre

02-16-2006, 10:28 PM

Think how great the romans would have been if they took over the whole world, they would have dominated every olympics!

shawn_kemp*

02-16-2006, 10:30 PM

Think how great the romans would have been if they took over the whole world, they would have dominated every olympics!

Or how good Germany would be if the 3rd reich lasted more than a few years!

Germany would win every gold medal by default!!! :biglaugh:

:dunce:

yarre

02-16-2006, 11:15 PM

Or how good Germany would be if the 3rd reich lasted more than a few years!

Germany would win every gold medal by default!!! :biglaugh:

:dunce:

I was thinking about taking that one first but I thought it might be touchy subject for some people maybe. :dunno: The "What if"-threads are fun but they are quite weird too, I mean, what if Alexander the Great (not Ovechkin), didn't die at such a young age, maybe he would have invaded Egypt, crushed the romans, slained the barbarians in the north and we might have never had any hockeyteams... Or what if Sweden would have remained in control of Finland, then we would have a team like:

Selänne - Koivu - Lethinen
Alfredsson - Forsberg - Jokkinen
Zetterberg - Sundin - Näslund

as the top three lines. Excellent defense with Öhlund, Norström, Lidström, Timonen, Pitkänen, Lydman etc. (sorry if I am missing some finn's, not an expert on them)

And goalies like Kipper, Lundqvist, Lethonen and Toivonen.

Would be a decent team as well I believe.

jaydub

02-16-2006, 11:22 PM

It's a OT, but imagine how good the Yugoslavian basketball team would be?

they would still be nowhere close to the USA's top team.

Jimmi Jenkins

02-16-2006, 11:35 PM

If Czechslovakia was still one country, They would be the favourite in every international tournament

willie

02-16-2006, 11:38 PM

If Czechslovakia was still one country, They would be the favourite in every international tournament

I don't buy it. Most creative team? Sure. Most well rounded team? Not a chance.

Raider917

02-16-2006, 11:41 PM

the Czech Republic team should be good enough to be winning convincingly now but arent. Playing like this, it wouldnt matter a whole lot if they still were Czechkoslovakia and had a better team on paper.

kingsfan25

02-16-2006, 11:43 PM

I hear that was the main sticking point for most people who were against Slovakian independence. :sarcasm:

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 12:07 AM

I was thinking about taking that one first but I thought it might be touchy subject for some people maybe. :dunno: The "What if"-threads are fun but they are quite weird too, I mean, what if Alexander the Great (not Ovechkin), didn't die at such a young age, maybe he would have invaded Egypt, crushed the romans, slained the barbarians in the north and we might have never had any hockeyteams... Or what if Sweden would have remained in control of Finland, then we would have a team like:

Selänne - Koivu - Lethinen
Alfredsson - Forsberg - Jokkinen
Zetterberg - Sundin - Näslund

as the top three lines. Excellent defense with Öhlund, Norström, Lidström, Timonen, Pitkänen, Lydman etc. (sorry if I am missing some finn's, not an expert on them)

And goalies like Kipper, Lundqvist, Lethonen and Toivonen.

Would be a decent team as well I believe.

Now how about if the Great October Revolution of 1917 would've never happened and the Grand Duchhy of Finland would've still remained part of Russian Empire with Czar's heir being the Grand Duke of Finland?

Olympic Imperial team Russia:

Kovalchuk-Koivu-Kovalev
Ovechkin-Datsyuk-Lehtinen
Frolov-O. Jokinen-Sellane
Malkin-Yashin-Afinogenov (Tuomo Ruutu)

Volchenkov-Pitkanen
A. Markov-D. Markov
Tyutin-Timmonen
Salo-Vishnevski

Nabokov
Lehtonen

How about that? ;)

Radulov for Czar*

02-17-2006, 12:10 AM

What about if the USA invaded Canada? Our roster would look like this:

2006 Men's Olympic Team - Goaltenders

Player S/C HT WT Birthdate Hometown Team
Martin Brodeur L 6'2 210 5/6/72 Montreal, QC New Jersey
Roberto Luongo L 6'3 205 4/4/79 Montreal, QC Florida
Marty Turco L 6'0 171 8/13/75 Sault Ste. Marie, ON Dallas

2006 Men's Olympic Team - Defence

Player S/C HT WT Birthdate Hometown Team
Rob Blake R 6'4 225 12/10/69 Simcoe, ON Colorado
Jay Bouwmeester L 6'4 220 9/27/83 Edmonton, AB Florida
Adam Foote R 6'2 215 7/10/71 Whitby, ON Columbus
Bryan McCabe L 6'2 220 6/8/75 St. Catharines, ON Toronto
Scott Niedermayer L 6'1 200 8/31/73 Cranbrook, BC Anaheim
Chris Pronger L 6'6 218 10/10/74 Dryden, ON Edmonton
Wade Redden L 6'2 205 6/12/77 Lloydminster, SK Ottawa
Robyn Regehr L 6'2 226 4/19/80 Rosthern, SK Calgary

2006 Men's Olympic Team - Forwards

Player S/C HT WT Birthdate Hometown Team
Todd Bertuzzi R 6'3 245 2/2/75 Sudbury, ON Vancouver
Shane Doan R 6'2 216 10/10/76 Halkirk, AB Phoenix
Kris Draper L 5'11 190 5/24/71 Toronto, ON Detroit
Simon Gagne L 6'0 190 2/29/80 Ste-Foy, QC Philadelphia
Dany Heatley L 6'3 215 1/21/81 Calgary, AB Ottawa
Jarome Iginla R 6'1 208 7/1/77 St. Albert, AB Calgary
Vincent Lecavalier L 6'4 207 4/21/80 Ile Bizard, QC Tampa Bay
Rick Nash L 6'3 188 6/16/84 Brampton, ON Columbus
Brad Richards L 6'1 198 5/2/80 Murray Harbour, PEI Tampa Bay
Joe Sakic L 5'11 195 7/7/69 Burnaby, BC Colorado
Ryan Smyth L 6'1 190 2/21/76 Banff, AB Edmonton
Martin St-Louis L 5'9 185 6/18/75 Laval, QC Tampa Bay
Joe Thornton L 6'4 220 7/2/79 St. Thomas, ON San Jose

2006 Olympic Team - Reserves
Player S/C HT WT Birthdate Hometown Team
Dan Boyle R 5'11 190 7/12/76 Ottawa, ON Tampa Bay
Jason Spezza R 6'3 211 6/13/83 Toronto, ON Ottawa
Eric Staal L 6'4 205 6/29/84 Thunder Bay, ON Carolina

Pretty good team, eh? :snide:

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 12:10 AM

they would still be nowhere close to the USA's top team.
Well, Serbia beat USA in the WC and won gold medal. Countries like Croatia and Slovenia are producing NBA talent as well. Well, it's moot point. Yeah, when properly coached and playing like a team, nobody can come close to team NBA (USA)

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 12:13 AM

Chootoi

02-17-2006, 12:14 AM

i'd love to see the roster for team pangea

monster_bertuzzi

02-17-2006, 12:15 AM

monster_bertuzzi

02-17-2006, 12:16 AM

Yayo

02-17-2006, 12:17 AM

What if, Papabear...what if.

BruinsGirl

02-17-2006, 12:40 AM

Yep, we do...

Want better hockey teams, let's put the Soviet Union back together....or the entire British Empire... :sarcasm:

Actually russian hockey didn't suffer much (except for discipline and such).... much less than russian football (soccer)

BruinsGirl

02-17-2006, 12:42 AM

Now how about if the Great October Revolution of 1917 would've never happened and the Grand Duchhy of Finland would've still remained part of Russian Empire with Czar's heir being the Grand Duke of Finland?
How about that? ;)

I was thinking the same thing... :yo: :clap:

btn

02-17-2006, 12:45 AM

If Czechslovakia was still one country, They would be the favourite in every international tournament

Didn't I hear Clement say that only 4 Slovaks were allowed on the Czechslovakia hockey team when the country was still united.

Having 4 Slovaks would help a bit I guess.

Danny__K

02-17-2006, 12:56 AM

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 01:01 AM

Actually russian hockey didn't suffer much (except for discipline and such).... much less than russian football (soccer)
Totally. Out of all those worthless and useless countries that have sprawled in place of USSR (including the so-called "Republic of Kazakhstan" where I was born - so don't anyone accuse me of being nationalist/imperialist), there isn't a single player that can be contributed to team Russia, except for Latvia's Irbe (a better back up than Bryzgalov) and maybe, a big maybe Antropov. Yeah, I'd take Antropov and his checking ability in place of Korky or Kharitonov. Yes, Ozolinsh individually is better than say Zhukov or Vish or Kaspar. But he is not needed at all. He is a Latvian Poti and we already have Gonchar. Enough said.

Soccer is a whole other story. We would need mostly Ukraine.

Jazz

02-17-2006, 01:18 AM

i'd love to see the roster for team pangeaI was waiting for this one as well.... :biglaugh:

I've responded with this before, and wanted to give someone the chance this time...

Raimo Sillanpää

02-17-2006, 02:18 AM

Totally. Out of all those worthless and useless countries that have sprawled in place of USSR (including the so-called "Republic of Kazakhstan" where I was born - so don't anyone accuse me of being nationalist/imperialist), there isn't a single player that can be contributed to team Russia, except for Latvia's Irbe (a better back up than Bryzgalov) and maybe, a big maybe Antropov. Yeah, I'd take Antropov and his checking ability in place of Korky or Kharitonov. Yes, Ozolinsh individually is better than say Zhukov or Vish or Kaspar. But he is not needed at all. He is a Latvian Poti and we already have Gonchar. Enough said.

Soccer is a whole other story. We would need mostly Ukraine.

You mean:

Shevchenko >>> Russia ?

3 goals = chili

02-17-2006, 03:53 AM

who wins between these two??

Team Canada or Team French Canada

Rover*

02-17-2006, 04:10 AM

who wins between these two??

Team Canada or Team French Canada

Some crazy french politicians want exactly that. He wants a separate quebec team. From what I've heard, the olympics wouldn't allow two teams from the same country, but there are some international competitions that would. TSN even did a story about it this season and went around asking the french cdns which team would win and if they'd play for a french cnd team. I think all of them said it'd be interesting, but that they would rather that not happen and they want to play for team canada.

superroyain10

02-17-2006, 04:22 AM

If I remember my political history, wasn't a gripe of the Slovakians that they were not included on the Czech sportsteams? That ethnic Czechs were given priority.

Esko6

02-17-2006, 05:11 AM

While you are at it, why don't you make the "Nazi Germany at its largest"-team. Also every country that was an ally of Germany should send players. Every Russian player born west of St.Petersburgh-Moscow-Volgograd-line should also play for the team.
I don't remember who is a left winger or a center so this is not very accurate. I am also basing this almost only on points, I can't be bothered to ponder.

So...

Forwards
Kovalchuk (Tver was taken) - Jokinen - Hossa
Heatley (born in Germany :I) - Demitra - Gaborik
Straka - Koivu - Selänne
Nagy - Handzus - Satan

Defence
Visnovsky - Kaberle
Timonen - Zidlicky
Chara - Pitkänen

Goalies
Hasek
Kiprusoff
Vokoun

Jakethesnake

02-17-2006, 05:29 AM

they would still be nowhere close to the USA's top team.

Arrogance personified

Who won the most recent Olympics?? Whats USA's record in recent Basketball World Championships??

Best players DOES NOT equal best team.

TK79

02-17-2006, 07:13 AM

Ola

02-17-2006, 07:23 AM

I would like to see Canada split. They are too good... ;)

Caz

02-17-2006, 07:24 AM

What about if the USA invaded Canada?

I guess Finns immediately have to start preparations for invading
BOTH Russia and Sweden.

Then our roster would look like this:

http://www.yle.fi/cgi-bin/tekstitv/ttv.cgi/?PAGE=670&x=21&y=13

:biglaugh:

jZweeds

02-17-2006, 07:31 AM

What about the European Union? Slovakia, the czechs, Finland, Sweden, Latvia, Germany, Switzerland, Italy

jekoh

02-17-2006, 07:32 AM

Shouldn't Russia also claim Scott Gomez ?

Caz

02-17-2006, 07:34 AM

Didn't they play the NA - Europe games in NHL a few years ago?

Jimmi Jenkins

02-17-2006, 08:02 AM

Didn't I hear Clement say that only 4 Slovaks were allowed on the Czechslovakia hockey team when the country was still united.

Having 4 Slovaks would help a bit I guess.
I mean if you left Politics out of it, but I know you can't really do that in this situation.

Edit: Chara, Visnovsky, Gaborik & Demitra would help alot, I think

shawn_kemp*

02-17-2006, 08:43 AM

What if there were no countries? Let the tribes play!!!

Winner

02-17-2006, 08:53 AM

Slovakia will die from joy the day, when they beat us in some really important match. I guess that's the reason why they wanted to split up in the first place - to have the opportunity to beat those arrogant Czechs :D

What? It is just a game? Not in Czecho-Slovakia :sarcasm:

Archijerej

02-17-2006, 09:02 AM

What if there were no countries? Let the tribes play!!!

Imagine there's no countries....see it if you can... :D

Caz

02-17-2006, 09:10 AM

Imagine there's no countries....see it if you can... :D

I may say you're a dreamer,
but you're not the only one... :D

e-e

02-17-2006, 09:37 AM

Didn't I hear Clement say that only 4 Slovaks were allowed on the Czechslovakia hockey team when the country was still united.

Having 4 Slovaks would help a bit I guess.

that's simply not true. there'd never been any number allowed slovaks on national team. the fact was that slovak had to be a bit better that czech to make the team. like it or not....that's the way it was.
czech managment, coaches,...a lot czech players. i personaly never made a difference between ruzicka, hrdina, pasek, rusnak,...that was our team and everybody cheered for them.

btw: on WC moskow 86 there were roughly 10 slovaks on team....o man we sucked that year :confused:

hossua34

02-17-2006, 09:48 AM

e-e, I just wanted you to know that your avatar haunts me in my dreams.

e-e

02-17-2006, 10:12 AM

e-e, I just wanted you to know that your avatar haunts me in my dreams.
:D

thomasincanada

02-17-2006, 10:20 AM

who wins between these two??

Team Canada or Team French Canada

Team Canada. Quebec is only the second most productive province in Canada in terms of NHL talent. They always have a few real good talents, but just don't have the depth.

Team Ontario vs Canada would be much closer.

Pepper

02-17-2006, 10:36 AM

ColinM

02-17-2006, 10:46 AM

Back to the original topic I'm not sure that a Czechoslovakian team would be that much scarier than the current Czech roster. Each country has a comparable set of forward lines that on some levels are interchangable and they both lack depth on defence. Once you get past Chara and Khaberle there isn't much that is noticable. Throw in the lack of world class goaltending in Slovakia it's hard to believe the Czech republic would be in a better spot for having access to Slovakian players.

To me it wouldn't be the same story as you would see with an English-Canada/French-Canada break up. Quebec certainly has alot of depth in goal but little to choose from on defence. As such that is a situation where we have a stronger united team than two divided ones.

3 goals = chili

02-17-2006, 11:12 AM

Arrogance personified

Who won the most recent Olympics?? Whats USA's record in recent Basketball World Championships??

Best players DOES NOT equal best team.

theres no doubt that if the US had ANY...ANY outside shooting in these last Olympics they would have fared 10x better than they did. If Michael Redd or Kobe or Ray Allen or anyone with a shot that can range past 15 feet had been put on the team instead of Carmelo, Marbury, Boozer then the US would have medaled.

Arrogance or not if the best team from the US plays there is no way they should lose. I'm sorry but you cannot have an answer for the likes of

1- Jason Kidd
2- Kobe Bryant
3- LeBron James
4- Tim Duncan
5- Shaq

Bench= Iverson, Wade, Stoudemire, McGrady, Redd, Allen, Garnett, Brand, Wallace

I would bet the farm that a team with that lineup would win Gold 10/10 times, the only problem is i dont think we'll ever see a lineup like this because of egos and such, maybe if we played with 3 basketballs we could solve all the problems but that cant happen

Ar-too

02-17-2006, 11:24 AM

BruinsGirl

02-17-2006, 01:13 PM

Kirk Muller*

02-17-2006, 02:17 PM

What if we had a team like, Canada, USA, Finland and Sweden...

and then like also Russian, Slovakia and Czech Republic ! We would pound those Bielorussians !!

DonEsteban

02-17-2006, 04:54 PM

...
btw: on WC moskow 86 there were roughly 10 slovaks on team....o man we sucked that year :confused:
Too much vodka, I heard...

DonEsteban

02-17-2006, 05:05 PM

[QUOTE=ColinM]Back to the original topic I'm not sure that a Czechoslovakian team would be that much scarier than the current Czech roster. Each country has a comparable set of forward lines that on some levels are interchangable and they both lack depth on defence. Once you get past Chara and Khaberle there isn't much that is noticable. Throw in the lack of world class goaltending in Slovakia it's hard to believe the Czech republic would be in a better spot for having access to Slovakian players.
QUOTE]
I disagree. Hossa, Demitra, Gaborik are definitive improvement over the bottom part of the Czech forwards, hell, they are right there behind Jagr.

While the defense of both teams is not too deep, combined they are really fine: adding Chara, Visnovsky, Meszaros really helps, both in quality and depth.

Nothing needs to be added to Hasek/Vokoun tandem.

While both Czech and Slovak teams are fairly strong with outstanding top players,
their weakness is lack of depth. Combining them removes this weakness and makes them truly on par with Canada (if not better :yo: )

Thibaj

02-17-2006, 06:05 PM

Some crazy french politicians want exactly that. He wants a separate quebec team. From what I've heard, the olympics wouldn't allow two teams from the same country, but there are some international competitions that would. TSN even did a story about it this season and went around asking the french cdns which team would win and if they'd play for a french cnd team. I think all of them said it'd be interesting, but that they would rather that not happen and they want to play for team canada.

You are a "crazy french politician" just because you propose this? During the biggest football tournament (the World Cup), there is no team Great Britain, but there is team England, Scotland, etc... Why is it crazy to propose the same thing for hockey tournaments?

And during the "Jeux de la Francophonie", you have team New Brunswick, team Québec and team Canada and nobody thinks that this is crazy either.

e-e

02-17-2006, 06:56 PM

Too much vodka, I heard...
not really...
the results was reflection of the chemistry in the dressing room between slovaks and czechs.
unlike the previous years there were significanly more slovaks nominated to national team and some of the players didn't like it. there was even fight between peter slanina (slovak) and oldrich valek (czech) before the game against CCCP (i think) because of the "great" atmosphere between slovak and czechs.
nobody liked any nomination to natianal team. too many slovak, not enough slovak and so forth.
i didn't like either. but once thay play i didn't make difference between players i cheered for czechoslovakia team :teach:

Coburnfan05

02-17-2006, 07:08 PM

Think how great the romans would have been if they took over the whole world, they would have dominated every olympics!

LOL...Only untill the Huns came around.

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 07:19 PM

That sounds a little harsh, doesn't it?

I am from Ukraine (originally)... ;)

(By the way... Vishnevsky is from Kharkov :clap: ... Let's not forget Zhitnik. )
My apologies, my dear countrywoman. I'm harsh because I miss Soviet Union. In all honesty, my parents would not have immigrated to USA if USSR would not have collapsed and so tragically altered lives of so many millions throughout the post-Soviet space, including the lives of my parents. The reason I call these republics useless and worthless is because they mean nothing to the world. The leadership of all these countries are whoring themselves to receive grants, credits, the majority of which will pass into their bank accounts, while the people of these countries would hardly notice any difference. It's just a tragedy what happened to the Soviet people.

Vishnevsky is a Ukrainian? Then why did he have tears on his eyes when he received the call from Bure? Perhaps he was born in Kharkov' and then moved to Russia and probably has the same feelings about Russia as I do who was not born in Russia. Zhitnik has a typical Ukrainian last name and I believe he's from Kiev. In any case, I probably should've been more politically correct. Again, I apologize my opinions have hurt your feelings.

BruinsGirl

02-17-2006, 08:03 PM

My apologies, my dear countrywoman. I'm harsh because I miss Soviet Union. In all honesty, my parents would not have immigrated to USA if USSR would not have collapsed and so tragically altered lives of so many millions throughout the post-Soviet space, including the lives of my parents. The reason I call these republics useless and worthless is because they mean nothing to the world. The leadership of all these countries are whoring themselves to receive grants, credits, the majority of which will pass into their bank accounts, while the people of these countries would hardly notice any difference. It's just a tragedy what happened to the Soviet people.

Vishnevsky is a Ukrainian? Then why did he have tears on his eyes when he received the call from Bure? Perhaps he was born in Kharkov' and then moved to Russia and probably has the same feelings about Russia as I do who was not born in Russia. Zhitnik has a typical Ukrainian last name and I believe he's from Kiev. In any case, I probably should've been more politically correct. Again, I apologize my opinions have hurt your feelings.

No problems.. :) and who would've?

I am also quiet upset with everything that's happened. We are jewish-russians and I (unfortunatelly) don't feel anything toward New Ukraine. :( In fact I've visited to Moskow many more times than Kiev.

Vishnevsky is from Ukraine though... Kids team from Massachusetts visited kids hockey team in Kharkov and one of the kids stayed with Vishnevsky's family, he has younger brother. My guess is that Vitaliy accepted Russian citizenship, which make alot of sense, especially if he wanted to play for team Russia.

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 10:06 PM

No problems.. :) and who would've?

I am also quiet upset with everything that's happened. We are jewish-russians and I (unfortunatelly) don't feel anything toward New Ukraine. :( In fact I've visited to Moskow many more times than Kiev.

Vishnevsky is from Ukraine though... Kids team from Massachusetts visited kids hockey team in Kharkov and one of the kids stayed with Vishnevsky's family, he has younger brother. My guess is that Vitaliy accepted Russian citizenship, which make alot of sense, especially if he wanted to play for team Russia.
I have exactly the same feelings towards Kazakhstan. It's not my country. I was not born in Kazakhstan, I was born in USSR and raised accordingly. Russian Federation is the heir to the Soviet Union, so my sympathies will lie with them.

I didn't know that about Vishnevski. That's pretty cool. What makes it even cooler is that he actually wanted to play for Russia. How did you get that info about the kids?

e-e

02-17-2006, 10:23 PM

I have exactly the same feelings towards Kazakhstan. It's not my country. I was not born in Kazakhstan, I was born in USSR and raised accordingly. Russian Federation is the heir to the Soviet Union, so my sympathies will lie with them.

I didn't know that about Vishnevski. That's pretty cool. What makes it even cooler is that he actually wanted to play for Russia. How did you get that info about the kids?

i can't believe.
i was born and grew up in czechoslovakia. i didn't want czechoslovakia to split but i'm happy for independant slovakia now. it's so much better for both slovaks and czechs. don't get me wrong czechs are still "my people" . ;)

to BruinsGirl:
i've always though that ukrainiens (not sure how to write that) hate being called russians...no attacks :teach:
at least those i've talked on that topic told me so

VanIslander

02-17-2006, 10:26 PM

yeah, if only the Soviets forcibly still controlled two entirely different peoples :shakehead

Daryn Duliba

02-17-2006, 10:27 PM

I have mentioned this before to. I believe if they were still one country they would be pretty dominate internationaly. probably better than us. or at least very very close. How crazy would that team be to play against lol. Who do you think would win? Canada or USSR

Elias Lang Jagr
Nagy Straka Hossa
Gaborik Vyborny Demitra
Satan Havlat Hejduk

Bondra, Svatos

Chara Visnovski
T. Kaberle F. Kaberle
Zidlicky Kubina

Malik

Hasek
Vokoun
Budaj

I just roughly threw those lines together (Havlat and Satan are out of position for starters), but as you can see, Czechoslovakia would be fierce.

Just think, in 50 years we will say that about Canada.

"Just think, if Alberta and Quebec were still part of Canada..." ;)

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 10:39 PM

i can't believe.
i was born and grew up in czechoslovakia. i didn't want czechoslovakia to split but i'm happy for independant slovakia now. it's so much better for both slovaks and czechs. don't get me wrong czechs are still "my people" . ;)

i've always though that ukrainiens (not sure how to write that) hate being called russians...no attacks :teach:

You could tell the difference by the way the last name ends. But most of the time it doesn't matter. I have lived in a region and used to go to class where out of 25 students, only 3 had last names with Russian endings. The rest had Ukrainian endings. Yet, all of them considered themselves Russian. Another such example is Kovalchuk - that's a fine Ukrainian last name. But I bet if you'd ask him, he'd tell you that he is Russian. The President of Belarus has a purely Ukrainian last name - Lukashenko. Yet it did not stop Belarussians to vote for him the first time around (not the recent elections). There are plenty of examples like that. Datsyuk is another example of a Ukrainian last name. So is Zhitnik. Kasparaitis is half Lithuanian and half Ukrainian, yet he chooses to be Russian.

e-e

02-17-2006, 10:48 PM

You could tell the difference by the way the last name ends. But most of the time it doesn't matter. I have lived in a region and used to go to class where out of 25 students, only 3 had last names with Russian endings. The rest had Ukrainian endings. Yet, all of them considered themselves Russian. Another such example is Kovalchuk - that's a fine Ukrainian last name. But I bet if you'd ask him, he'd tell you that he is Russian. The President of Belarus has a purely Ukrainian last name - Lukashenko. Yet it did not stop Belarussians to vote for him the first time around (not the recent elections). There are plenty of examples like that. Datsyuk is another example of a Ukrainian last name. So is Zhitnik. Kasparaitis is half Lithuanian and half Ukrainian, yet he chooses to be Russian.

i didn't talk about names....my point was:
if you hear someone speak english with "azbuka" accent and he introduces himself as igor, ivan, sasa,...people tend to say the guy is a russian. but he might not be...and i really has been told that ukrainins hate being called russians ... i'm not saying that...i was told

GuloGulo

02-17-2006, 10:58 PM

Bilyaletdinov, Khabibulin: Tatars on ice :handclap:

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 10:59 PM

i didn't talk about names....my point was:
if you hear someone speak english with "azbuka" accent and he introduces himself as igor, ivan, sasa,...people tend to say the guy is a russian. but he might not be...and i really has been told that ukrainins hate being called russians ... i'm not saying that...i was told
Oh, if that's the case then it is simply a matter of who you feel like. Someone may feel like a Jedi knight and might be offended when he is called American, same with the Ukrainians - some of them (usually from the Western Ukraine) feel like Ukrainians and others (like Datsyuk, Kovalchuk) feel like Russians.

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 11:02 PM

Bilyaletdinov, Khabibulin: Tatars on ice :handclap:
Indeed. Although in case of Khabibulin, he's as Russian as Putin, it's just the case of Mongolo-Tartarian last name (see Boris Godunov, Admiral Ushakov, my best friend Kazbanov)

nik jr

02-17-2006, 11:11 PM

zarathustra1900

02-17-2006, 11:25 PM

Maybe Czechoslovakia would have beaten Switzerland with that fantastic roster? :sarcasm:

I'm a big Czech fan, but, that was really funny ...<LOL>

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 11:30 PM

yeah, if only the Soviets forcibly still controlled two entirely different peoples :shakehead
What do you know about history? Only that which they taught you high school, apparently. Before I start presenting a counter argument to your statement, I'm going to ask you this - why did the US govenment genocided Native Americans? Why did they put the survivors into reservations? What right did they have? After the Civil War, US Army has drastically decreased in size. Yet, almost all of the Army units were deployed on the Wild West, waging war against its native inhabitants (chief Sitting Bull sounds familiar? Battle of Little Big Horn?). Little Big Horn became famous only because an Army unit (7th Cavalry Battalion is it?) had suffered a defeat at the hands of the Natives. Yet, how many villages, how many of these native inhabitants were slaughtered without anyone else knowing about it?

Forcibly... Rus has began as a state in the Dnieper basin, nowaday Ukraine. They have survived the Vikings, 240 year submission to Mongols... That 240 year Mongolian rule has weakened Rus, and most of its western territories were lost to more powerful Poland, Lithuania, and to some degree, Hungary. Those territories later became Belarus and Ukraine. Ironically enough, the Ukrainians who were fighting for their freedom from Poland and Lithuania were calling themselves Russians. The Moskovian government helped them as much as they could, but they two were beset by Swedes, Polish-Lithuanians, Krimean Tartars and Turks (Moscow was lost twice). Finally the Romanovs came to power and in 1648, Ukrainian leader Bogdan Khmelnitzki has pronounced the union of Small Rus (Ukraine) with Greater Rus (Russia). This is as short as I could make it. So, as you can see Russians and Ukrainians are not all that much different.

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 11:33 PM

i'm sure there is a lot of animosity btwn ukrainians and russians. not only b/c of russification policy and the famine of the 30's. i think very many ukrainians at 1st were happy that the nazis drove out the soviets. i read in a magazine a poll that said that ukraine was the country hated most by russians, even more than US. and ukraine didn't like russia either.
It's not hated, it's disliked. Why? Because the whored themselves over to NATO. Simple as that. That's why there's a lot more sympathy towards Belarus, because they don't care. In fact, I wish Russia was more like Belarus and sometimes I wish that Lukashenko was the Russian president.

nik jr

02-17-2006, 11:37 PM

It's not hated, it's disliked. Why? Because the whored themselves over to NATO. Simple as that. That's why there's a lot more sympathy towards Belarus, because they don't care. In fact, I wish Russia was more like Belarus and sometimes I wish that Lukashenko was the Russian president.
maybe ukraine went to NATO b/c they feared russia swallowing them. :dunno:
lukashenko is a bad dictator.

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 11:42 PM

maybe ukraine went to NATO b/c they feared russia swallowing them. :dunno:
lukashenko is a bad dictator.
What? Swallowing Ukraine? Both Ukraine and Russia know that there's nothing that Russia could do to Ukraine. The only reason they want to join NATO is to spite Russia. And no, we don't hate Ukrainians (I'm reitirating this again). It's the Ukrainians who hate Russians. We treat Ukrainians just like Americans treat Polaks.

Nemchinov13

02-17-2006, 11:47 PM

lukashenko is a bad dictator.
Why is he a bad dictator? Because he's not privatizing the major Belorussian industries? Because he does not want the same thing that happened in Russia ("wild capitalism") happen to Belarus? Because he doesn't care about Brussels, Washington and Moscow? Because he actually cares about the well-being of its citizens and he does not allow the foreign firms to bribe his government officials? Because he maintains a small but efficient first-class army?

nik jr

02-17-2006, 11:58 PM

What? Swallowing Ukraine? Both Ukraine and Russia know that there's nothing that Russia could do to Ukraine. The only reason they want to join NATO is to spite Russia. And no, we don't hate Ukrainians (I'm reitirating this again). It's the Ukrainians who hate Russians. We treat Ukrainians just like Americans treat Polaks.
well, maybe i should not have said hate; but ukraine was the least-liked country of all for russians.

it's very common for a minority group to feel small and threatened. and i don't think u can fault them for feeling like that. it's been a major feature of world history since the 19th C. we can see it all over. many quebecers want to be independent of canada. slovaks got their own country. many tamils are rebelling to get their own state in sri lanka.

why would ukrainians want to spite russia? i don't think it makes sense. i don't know why russia should care if ukraine wants to join NATO.

Nemchinov13

02-18-2006, 12:06 AM

why would ukrainians want to spite russia? i don't think it makes sense. i don't know why russia should care if ukraine wants to join NATO.
I care. Because I'm scared of NATO. With our Armed Forces reduced to what it is now, I fear that if we are going to finally have a true patriot in Kremlin (ala Belarussian Lukashenko), USA and NATO will find a good excuse to bring chaos (excuse me, in American language it's called "liberation") to our land. It would be the same thing as in Iraq. Who ever said that Iraqis are happy?

BruinsGirl

02-18-2006, 01:21 AM

i can't believe.
i was born and grew up in czechoslovakia. i didn't want czechoslovakia to split but i'm happy for independant slovakia now. it's so much better for both slovaks and czechs. don't get me wrong czechs are still "my people" . ;)

to BruinsGirl:
i've always though that ukrainiens (not sure how to write that) hate being called russians...no attacks :teach:
at least those i've talked on that topic told me so

I am not ukrainian.. Part jewish, part russian... There are a lot of russian people living in Ukraine and other former USSR republics. For many moving to Russia isn't an option. Besides in many parts of Ukraine culture is more close to russian than to ukrainian. For example in my Kharkov (now Kharkiv) and in many Eastern cities Russian language was used everywhere as primary language. We even started learning Ukrainian only in second grade, and it wasn't mandatory... Now everything is changing and it's not easy for many people even for ukrainians who've never used
it. Peoople in Western Ukraine have completely different culture and don't really like Easterner, and especially russians.

When USSR was one coumtry it wasn't as noticable, as Russian was official language etc.

It was also great to travel without any problems to any republic... It was also nice to feel yourself a part of big wonderful country.

Anyway... On March 1st, we'll celebrate 10 years of moving here... and when I have nostalgic moment it's all about Soviet Union, not Ukraine .

nik jr

02-18-2006, 01:27 AM

Why is he a bad dictator? Because he's not privatizing the major Belorussian industries? Because he does not want the same thing that happened in Russia ("wild capitalism") happen to Belarus? Because he doesn't care about Brussels, Washington and Moscow? Because he actually cares about the well-being of its citizens and he does not allow the foreign firms to bribe his government officials? Because he maintains a small but efficient first-class army?
he tramples all over ppl's rights. there are other options than lukashenko and oligarchs.

I care. Because I'm scared of NATO. With our Armed Forces reduced to what it is now, I fear that if we are going to finally have a true patriot in Kremlin (ala Belarussian Lukashenko), USA and NATO will find a good excuse to bring chaos (excuse me, in American language it's called "liberation") to our land. It would be the same thing as in Iraq. Who ever said that Iraqis are happy?
and maybe ukraine is scared of russia. even if us ever wanted to attack russia, europeans wouldn't allow NATO to do it. i don't think ukraine would want it either.
russia should not fear us. it has nuclear weapons. us had many more reasons to attack ussr, but it didn't b/c of nuclear weapons.

nik jr

02-18-2006, 01:29 AM

i too have heard that ukrainians hate to be called russians. could try to ask some ukrainians, if any are here.

JayF

02-18-2006, 02:14 AM

Legionnaire

02-18-2006, 03:02 AM

theres no doubt that if the US had ANY...ANY outside shooting in these last Olympics they would have fared 10x better than they did. If Michael Redd or Kobe or Ray Allen or anyone with a shot that can range past 15 feet had been put on the team instead of Carmelo, Marbury, Boozer then the US would have medaled.

Arrogance or not if the best team from the US plays there is no way they should lose. I'm sorry but you cannot have an answer for the likes of

1- Jason Kidd
2- Kobe Bryant
3- LeBron James
4- Tim Duncan
5- Shaq

Bench= Iverson, Wade, Stoudemire, McGrady, Redd, Allen, Garnett, Brand, Wallace

I would bet the farm that a team with that lineup would win Gold 10/10 times, the only problem is i dont think we'll ever see a lineup like this because of egos and such, maybe if we played with 3 basketballs we could solve all the problems but that cant happen

Team play always beats a group of individuals

Legionnaire

02-18-2006, 03:03 AM

i too have heard that ukrainians hate to be called russians. could try to ask some ukrainians, if any are here.

The Ukraine is feeble.

Bonzi

02-18-2006, 03:37 AM

i too have heard that ukrainians hate to be called russians. could try to ask some ukrainians, if any are here.
Well, that's not Russians fault, is it? In the Western Europe and the US every single man from any former Soviet country is called "Russian". As far as I know, in famous "Russian mafia" in the US, the number of Russians is small enough(it mostly consists of representers of other former Soviet republics), however it is still called "Russian mafia".
And you know, Crimea and some other eastern Ukranian regions were given to Ukraine to consolidate the "communist streak"(though Crimea was given to Ukraine in the 50's with no reason by Khruschev...), and now we just don't want this regions, which are originally ours, to join the block, that's opposite to Russia.
Between, I spoke with a couple of guys from Belarus, and they don't think it's all that bad in their country, they are satisfied with the standarts of living in Belarus, and don't think someone, except Lukashenko could do it better.

Hasbro

02-18-2006, 04:01 AM

Imagine how good a team Russia would have if the Czar never abdicated. They'd have all the republics, Poland (can't forget about them) and Finland.

Legionnaire

02-18-2006, 04:21 AM

Well, that's not Russians fault, is it? In the Western Europe and the US every single man from any former Soviet country is called "Russian". As far as I know, in famous "Russian mafia" in the US, the number of Russians is small enough(it mostly consists of representers of other former Soviet republics), however it is still called "Russian mafia".
And you know, Crimea and some other eastern Ukranian regions were given to Ukraine to consolidate the "communist streak"(though Crimea was given to Ukraine in the 50's with no reason by Khruschev...), and now we just don't want this regions, which are originally ours, to join the block, that's opposite to Russia.
Between, I spoke with a couple of guys from Belarus, and they don't think it's all that bad in their country, they are satisfied with the standarts of living in Belarus, and don't think someone, except Lukashenko could do it better.

That's not true. I think a lot of "Westerner's" understand there's a big difference between the peoples both ethnically, and culturally.

It's called the Russian Mafia because Russia is where is was born. While there may have been others from the Soviet bloc who were imprisoned when/where the Red Fellas were started, the majority were Russian.

RickNashEquilibrium

02-18-2006, 05:06 AM

I am not ukrainian.. Part jewish, part russian... There are a lot of russian people living in Ukraine and other former USSR republics. For many moving to Russia isn't an option. Besides in many parts of Ukraine culture is more close to russian than to ukrainian. For example in my Kharkov (now Kharkiv) and in many Eastern cities Russian language was used everywhere as primary language. We even started learning Ukrainian only in second grade, and it wasn't mandatory... Now everything is changing and it's not easy for many people even for ukrainians who've never used
it. Peoople in Western Ukraine have completely different culture and don't really like Easterner, and especially russians.

When USSR was one coumtry it wasn't as noticable, as Russian was official language etc.

It was also great to travel without any problems to any republic... It was also nice to feel yourself a part of big wonderful country.

Anyway... On March 1st, we'll celebrate 10 years of moving here... and when I have nostalgic moment it's all about Soviet Union, not Ukraine .

Thanks. Ukraine is the largest country aside from Russia in Europe.. bigger than france or germany, and used to have a population near that size a mere 20 years ago. It is not culturally homogenous. I'm also from Kharkov, but im too young to be nostalgic about anything. Russian was my first language, and everyone I know from there speaks Russian not Ukrainian. People in the east of the country voted (mostly) against the 'orange revolution', they identify often better with Russians than with Ukrainians. I've lived in Canada my whole life, but I have a Russian name, and when people ask I say I'm Russian.

Zherdev's ukrainian too.. right?

Hasbro

02-18-2006, 05:26 AM

The Ukraine is feeble.
Only in Risk

jekoh

02-18-2006, 05:54 AM

Someone may feel like a Jedi knight and might be offended when he is called American, same with the Ukrainians - some of them (usually from the Western Ukraine) feel like Ukrainians and others (like Datsyuk, Kovalchuk) feel like Russians.Maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with the fact Datsyuk and Kovalchuk were born and raised in Russia. Merely having a Ukrainian last name doesn't make them Ukrainians.

Bonzi

02-18-2006, 05:57 AM

Name means nothing. You can find 100%-Russian with the surname like Yuschenko, and 100%-Ukranian with the surname like Ivanov.

C-J...*

02-18-2006, 06:15 AM

I´d like to see a 7 game-series between Europe, and the rest of the world.

Imagine the team Europe could line up :amazed:

jekoh

02-18-2006, 06:28 AM

I´d like to see a 7 game-series between Europe, and the rest of the world.

Imagine the team Europe could line up :amazed:Rest of the world could be strong at center: Datsyuk, Malkin, Yashin...

C-J...*

02-18-2006, 06:33 AM

Rest of the world could be strong at center: Datsyuk, Malkin, Yashin...

Those three wouldnt even make the team :sarcasm:

Legionnaire

02-18-2006, 09:39 AM

Those three wouldnt even make the team :sarcasm:

Tough call. At least one of them would though IMO.

Forsberg
Sundin

Well maybe not

Archijerej

02-18-2006, 10:11 AM

Mister Nemchinov, Ukrainians didn't call themselves Moscovites (because I doubt the name Russians existed back then, XVII century ), and the Union of Pereyeslavl happened in 1654 not in 1648 when the Cossacs insurrected, when it became obvious that they couldn't manage a decisive win against Polish-Lithaunian state. So they turned to Aleksy Mikhailovich Romanov as their ally and protector. When you ask a question: were they closer culturally and politically to Moscov then to Warsaw and Vilnius? Yes, they were. But were they Moscovites or considered themselves Moscovites? No way. Don't let the rhetoric fool you. They needed tsar's help so they claimed themselves "brothers". Chmielnicky first wanted the same laws and profits for Cossacs (not Ukrainians in general) that Polish and Lithaunian nobility had. He wanted a Commonwealth of Three Nations istead of Two Nations (Pol-Lith). The, when he grown into power, when peasantry supported him and he kicked our butts couple of times, he wanted an independent Cossac state. He turned to tsar when the Poles began to, if not take advantage (Berestechko battle) than at least restore the balance of power.
So my advice, I would not try to convince the Ukrainians, especially the Western ones, that they are Russians or that their Republic is pathethic or should return under the wings of Sacred Rus' just like I wouldn't try to convince them that they are Poles (wich they ofcourse are not). Anyways, sorry mods for this historical-political rant. It won't happen again.
BTW Bruins Girl, you are my favorite Bruins fan I still remember this "przyjaciel" ;) . Sould I say "Szcze ne zmerla Ukraina" or maybe you're blue not orange? :D. Oh wait, I see that you're not Ukrainian, anyways you have my invitations for my mom's pierogies, a common cultural treasure for three nations :D ;)

Pepper

02-18-2006, 11:13 AM

Rest of the world could be strong at center: Datsyuk, Malkin, Yashin...

Uhhuh, Russia is part of Europe... :shakehead

Nemchinov13

02-18-2006, 01:34 PM

Nemchinov13

02-18-2006, 01:55 PM

he tramples all over ppl's rights. there are other options than lukashenko and oligarchs.

and maybe ukraine is scared of russia. even if us ever wanted to attack russia, europeans wouldn't allow NATO to do it. i don't think ukraine would want it either.
russia should not fear us. it has nuclear weapons. us had many more reasons to attack ussr, but it didn't b/c of nuclear weapons.
Exactly. Without Lukashenko there would be some political prostitute that would do anything told by Washington just to get the grants, credits, etc. Once this happens, same thing that happened in Russia will occur, with oligarchs and such (see Yeltsin's rule). Belarus does not have oligarchs. Instead, Belarus has a growing middle class (unlike Russia or any other former Soviet republic) and has a stable and steady economy. As far as "trampling all over ppl's rights" - that's just typical Western ********. I have a couple of friends in Belarus. Obviously they don't like Lukashenko, but they also know that there won't be any better.

Actually Ukrainians will be happy to assist USA if they would ever attack Russia. Americans would be able to use them as storm troopers. For reference, see the Bandera guerillas who happily assisted the Wehrmacht and the SS in rounding up and exterminating Jews and non-Ukrainians. As far as the nuclear arsenal is concerned, it is the only thing that is keeping Russia safe.

Blackshad

02-18-2006, 02:03 PM

Lecavalier and Brodeur should play for France!!!!!!!! :D
And Gagné.. and St-Louis..

Archijerej

02-18-2006, 03:26 PM

Mixed up the dates on Pereyaslavl' and the insurrection. For that I apologize. But they did feel themselves "Russian" and definitely not Moskovite. For reference: read "Taras Bulba" by Nikolai Gogol - you would see a lot of references of "Russian blood," "Russian people," although they obviously spoke Ukrainian. And I never confused Ukrainians with Russians.

Edit: My post was to prove that Ukrainians (at least the Eastern part and the Dnieper basin population) have joined the Moskovite state voluntarily. And your post just proved that.

Taras Bulba was written in XIX century, so two ages later in the age of nationalism, when the ideas of "Greater Rus'" and "Small Rus'" (Ukraine) were "invented" and not by a historian. Gogol might have felt Russian, it was his right.
I didn't say they joined the Moscov state voluntarily, I said they were forced by political situation and it seemed like a good choice for them (the Cossacs). But it seems it wasn't. Peter the Great slaughtering Sich and Katherine the Great, although probably doing right from the Russian state point of view made them regret that they did it. And please note: It's not saying that they should remain in Polish-Lithaunian state, this is a complicated problem and I'm far from nationalistic demands and nationalistic nostalgia.
Anyways, I think that insrtead of ignoring aspirations and needs of former USSR nations and calling their states pathetic you should think why they're in such bad economical, social, political state. Maybe it's BECAUSE of Soviet system and not because of abandoning the Soviet system. As for Lukashenko, you're saying that isolating your country instead of going through a path that Poland, Chech Republic, Slovakia etc. went is a patriotism? Sure, transormation is a painfull process, but remaining a last Soviet republic in Europe, with soviet economy, secret police, IMO is acting against his nation, especially if this nation has no legal way to get rid of it's president. And it seems like more and more Belarussians are starting to realise that.

jekoh

02-18-2006, 03:44 PM

Uhhuh, Russia is part of Europe... :shakeheadNot where those three players were born.

Nemchinov13

02-18-2006, 04:56 PM

Taras Bulba was written in XIX century, so two ages later in the age of nationalism, when the ideas of "Greater Rus'" and "Small Rus'" (Ukraine) were "invented" and not by a historian. Gogol might have felt Russian, it was his right.
I didn't say they joined the Moscov state voluntarily, I said they were forced by political situation and it seemed like a good choice for them (the Cossacs). But it seems it wasn't. Peter the Great slaughtering Sich and Katherine the Great, although probably doing right from the Russian state point of view made them regret that they did it. And please note: It's not saying that they should remain in Polish-Lithaunian state, this is a complicated problem and I'm far from nationalistic demands and nationalistic nostalgia.
Anyways, I think that insrtead of ignoring aspirations and needs of former USSR nations and calling their states pathetic you should think why they're in such bad economical, social, political state. Maybe it's BECAUSE of Soviet system and not because of abandoning the Soviet system. As for Lukashenko, you're saying that isolating your country instead of going through a path that Poland, Chech Republic, Slovakia etc. went is a patriotism? Sure, transormation is a painfull process, but remaining a last Soviet republic in Europe, with soviet economy, secret police, IMO is acting against his nation, especially if this nation has no legal way to get rid of it's president. And it seems like more and more Belarussians are starting to realise that.
The Zaporozh Cossacks have enjoyed autonomy in the Russian state until Getman Mazepa betrayed Peter I during the Northern war. Besides personal revenge on Mazepa's betrayal (there was absolutely no reason for Masepa to betray Peter - the Czar has given him many tokens of attention and appreciation), the Sech had to be eliminated because it became the nest and a safe haven for fugitives. By the way, the Cossacks (whether they were the Don, Kuban', Ural or any other) have always enjoyed a degree of autonomy in the Russian State and its armed forces. Also, you seem to forget the aspirations of the Orthodox peasants, and the religious persecution by the Catholic Poles and Lithuanians (especially considering that they were the ruling class) against the Orthodox peasants have always invoked the feeling of unity with the "proper," "God-fearing" Russian Czar and Russians.
If you'd read more of Gogol', you'd see that in every of his stories and books there's a difference between a "proper Russian" (i.e. Ukrainian) and a Muscovite. He, himself, certainly knew his heritage. As far as the ideas of "Greater Rus," "Small Rus," "White Rus" - you're right - they're not invented by a historian. They were invented much earlier than that - during the rise of the Muscovian State, when the Grand Princes of Muscovy started the process of "collection" of Russian lands (the end of 14th and the beginning of 15th centuries). Russians always felt strongly about their "ancestral" lands, held by Lithuania and Poland. The Kiev, Chernigov, Galitchina, other now-Ukrainian lands (held by Poland at the time) became known as "Small Rus" and Minsk, Pinsk (can't remember the others) that were held by Lithuania became known as "White Rus" or Belarus.

BruinsGirl

02-18-2006, 09:03 PM

Wow.. what a discussion for hockey message board! :amazed:

Shoalzie

02-18-2006, 10:44 PM

Why do you guys have to suck the fun out of this by bringing in intelligent thoughts and ideas. Damn you! :D

I was thinking about the Czech/Slovakia reuinification team thing today myself. I'd pay money to watch them play a healthy Team Canada (with Niedermayer and Jovanovski) in a best-of-7. We wouldn't need the rest of the teams...they would clearly best two best teams in the Olympics. The rest can play it out for the bronze. I also thought about the reunification of the Soviet Union too...that would be a sick team as well. I miss communism...just kidding. ;)

Drudkh

02-18-2006, 10:54 PM

Thanks for the history lesson guys, that was an insightful read. I've read Gogol before, and that puts a new perspective on him for me.

And a Czech-Slovak game versus a Russian team with all their players would be a heck of a game to watch!

Ovechkin_mvp

02-18-2006, 11:18 PM

The best thread I have seen in weeks :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Ovechkin_mvp

02-18-2006, 11:36 PM

Technically Finland and Russia have never been in the same country as Finland has always had a legislation & other national symbols (own post office, currency etc) of it's own.

Finland-Sweden used to be the same country for 800 years though, nowadays the hate-factor is way too high to even dream about a common team :)

Finland was a dominion of Russia, and in 1809 under the Treaty of Hamina, Czar Alexandegra granted Finns autonomy.

I am glad, though, Finland got its independence, you have escaped the fates of those who suffered under Lenin's and Stalin rule

Ovechkin_mvp

02-18-2006, 11:43 PM

yeah, if only the Soviets forcibly still controlled two entirely different peoples :shakehead

To you information

KIEV was CAPITAL of Russia long before Moscow. (Kievskaya Rus')

We are one people, but were separated due to politics.

P.S: Nemchinov: Great posts.

monster_bertuzzi

02-18-2006, 11:51 PM

Why not unite the Scandinavians as well?

Naslund-Forsberg-Selanne
Modin-Sundin-Alfredsson
Lehtinen-Jokinen-Zetterberg
Sedin-Sedin-T.Ruutu

Ohlund-Timmonen
Lidstrom-Pitkannen
Norstrom-K.Johnsson

Kiprusoff
Lundqvist

:clap:

Trolt

02-19-2006, 01:07 AM

Need a 4 way tournament super battle with ...

1) Czechs + Slovaks

2) Fins + Swedes( Scandanavian connection)

3) USA + Russia ( they'll get along)

4) Canada + ??

would be fun to watch

Ovechkin_mvp

02-19-2006, 01:10 AM

Need a 4 way tournament super battle with ...

1) Czechs + Slovaks

2) Fins + Swedes( Scandanavian connection)

3) USA + Russia ( they'll get along)

4) Canada + ??

would be fun to watch

Canada + Switzerland

LOL, sorry, I just could not resist

All I Ever Wanted

02-19-2006, 01:13 AM

Canada + Switzerland

LOL, sorry, I just could not resist

YOU WIN. :biglaugh:

Trolt

02-19-2006, 01:15 AM

It'd be pretty much team canada anyways then :biglaugh:

Archijerej

02-19-2006, 01:42 AM

Ok. I will probably be banned not only for making political rants but also lying that my first one was a last one. But some things need clearing and this will really be my last post on this subject. If you want to discuss this longer mr. Nemchinov we can contact via an e-mail.
First I think that there's some misunderstanding of a semantics between us. In Polish language a word "Rosjanin" means a Russian, an inhabitant of current Russia(not counting a non Slavic nations that are part of Federation) and historically a Moscovite, but there is also an old word "Rusin" wich means a Ruthenian, an inhabitant of the old medieval Kiev Rus' and later an inhabitant of those Rus' teritories that were part of Pol-Lith state and are now Belaruss and Ukraine. You admitted that Gogol was making a distinction between Moscovites and "proper Russians". And I think that saying "proper Russians" he meant Ruthenians (Rusini) not Russians (Rosjanie). Those parts of the old Rus' went through it's own path that accelerated during a Polish-Lith reign and isolation of the rest old Rus' territories. Then they created it's own language and it's own identity wich was in large part build on an opposition against the Poles and the Catholic religion (after the Union of Brest' ). But later another part of their identity was added. The tsar, not long ago a saviour, an ally and a brother in faith was much more effective in cutting Cossac autonomy than an decentralised and already anarchistic Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Frome that time, through the Soviet era and up to this day an opposition against the Russians and Moscov is a large part of national identity of the Ukrainians. Are they similar in language and religion? Yes. Do they have a large parts of common history? Yes. But at the same time they're very different. They are a nation.
Note: I'm not disputing tsars or Russian or Soviet policy in Cossac Sich and later Ukraine. I'm trying to discuss the facts and not who was right and who was wrong. From a state, Machiavellian point of view there were good reasons to subordinate the Viking society that Cossacs were, and the Poles tried to do the same earlier, and I admitted it. My point is that the Ukrainians have heck of a lot differences from Russians beginning from language and ending on a hostility toward them wich (maybe unfortunately) is a great factor in defining or rather selfdefining of a nation.
You're right when it comes to origins of those "White Rus'", "Red Rus'", "Black Rus' " things. Already in XIV century polish king Kazimir the Great inherited "Red Rus' " areas. But the term "Little Rus' " was invented by the XIX century Russian historiography (nationalistic like probably all historiographies of that time), and it meant "yeah, those Ukrainians are little different than us but it's because they're Little Rusians that were long opressed by the catholic Poles and we are Great Russians, that helped them to liberate nad return to us and the only true Orthodox faith, the thruth is we're all Russians reunited again".

Nemchinov13

02-19-2006, 03:02 AM

I'm not disputing the fact that Ukrainians are a completely different nation from Russians. I agree, Ukrainians have their own language and their own culture. What I am disputing is that people (especially North Americans) have a notion that Ukrainians were forced into Russian Empire/Soviet Union. While it is true that there was no referendum taken among all of Ukrainian peasants (it was the 17th century), but overall, while the Cossacks lost, the peasantry won. Simple as that. And again, it was only the Zaporosh Sech that has lost. The other Cossack populations (Don, Kuban', Ural, etc) had quite an autonomy from the central government - they did not pay taxes, they were not serfs... All they had to do was to serve in the Imperial Armed forces and they had a distinguished status at that as well. You mentioned Catherine the Great. That's when first Ukrainians have reached the top levels of the Imperial govenment (and they continued to achieve successes during the later Emperors' administrations). Chancellor Bezborodko comes to mind (there's another Ukrainian that I can't remember).

I just want to kill the notion once and for all that Ukrainians were forced into the Russian state. It was a historical process inevitable in its own right, and by no means a forcible action on behalf of Muscovy. I believe I have brought up enough facts to prove my point. I'll PM you my email.