Kari Lehtonen withdraws from Olympics

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=152436&hubname=nhl

"...but after speaking with our doctors, we feel it's the best thing to do at this time and my only real option. We will now use the Olympic break as a part of my rehab program in an effort to continue strengthening the injury for the final stretch of the season."


Sounds familiar. Maybe Don Waddell hates the Olympics too :sarcasm:

Poor Finland. :cry: :shakehead

Quote:
"...but after speaking with our doctors, we feel it's the best thing to do at this time and my only real option. We will now use the Olympic break as a part of my rehab program in an effort to continue strengthening the injury for the final stretch of the season."


Should Forsberg be next with the same conclusion???

I'd suspect Hannu Toivonen will get the call if he gets healthy in the next week or so. I'd choose him anyway. Maybe it's just the homer coming out....

We be fakked. :cry:

Quote:
"...but after speaking with our doctors, we feel it's the best thing to do at this time and my only real option. We will now use the Olympic break as a part of my rehab program in an effort to continue strengthening the injury for the final stretch of the season."


Should Forsberg be next with the same conclusion???

total different cases. Forsberg is out 7 days. Swedens first game starts in 21 days.

I feel bad for finland. They're screwed big time.


Nittymakki is good though.

I'd suspect Hannu Toivonen will get the call. I'd choose him anyway. Maybe it's just the homer coming out....

I wouldn't count on it, as he's injured as well. To add insult to injuries, 3rd goalie Fredrik Norrena has been having groin troubles in Sweden lately so we might have to replace him as well.

Jeez, Kiprusoff and Lehtonen pull out, Toivonen is injured. How worse can it get in goal for the Finns?

What is Karri Takko doing?

Who's number one now?

Who's number one now?

nittymaki?

Use Tukka Rask :D :biglaugh:

what about vesa toskala?

Well, they still have Niittymäki and Toivonen who get regular icetime in the NHL. After Toivonen says no because of injury and Niittymäki withdraws, they are down to goalies like Toskala (who is pissed and prolly going to decline because he thinks he shoulda been picked the first time anyway) Noronen and Markkanen who don't play regularly.

Heck, they got more depth in the net than USA :clap:

Time for Tuukka Rask to show what he's made of :)

c'mon everyone...its clear...Finland wants Tim Thomas to start for them

Jeez, Kiprusoff and Lehtonen pull out, Toivonen is injured. How worse can it get in goal for the Finns?

Well seeing how Niittymaki has been better than Lehtonen and Toivonen this year, and outplayed them both in the playoffs last spring, only Kipper has been a big loss.

Lehtonen has been pretty average since returning...I dont think he would have done that great anyway this Olympics if he was the starter.

is mika norranen finnish? if so is he on the team?

Oh my. First Kiprusoft and now Lehtonen??? Gimme a break! Wiht only 1 average NHL goalie (Niddymagi) Finland is toast. Bye bue medal hopes... :shakehead

It's amazing how these terminally ill patients are playing as #1 goalies in their own hockey clubs.

Well, Niittymäki needs to step up then. Not that I am expecting that much from him, but finland still has a lot better team than they had in world cup. Unfortunately that will soon take another big blow when Sami Kapanen announces he can't play. But it's still the best team we have iced, keeping in mind our 1st line was completely plagued with injuries in world cup and could not help much at all. Now they are all healthy, except maybe Koivu who is never healthy but always usefull..especially on big ice.

Oh my. First Kiprusoft and now Lehtonen??? Gimme a break! Wiht only 1 average NHL goalie (Niddymagi) Finland is toast. Bye bue medal hopes... :shakehead

Its ok we all know that Latvia is going to win the gold! :bow: :biglaugh:

That's too bad for Finland. I was looking forward to seeing what Lehtonen would do on the world stage (beyond the junior level), playing against the best in the world (and with a credible defence in front of him).

The good news for Finland is this is the one position where they have a lot of depth. Only Canada can match the Finns' depth in goal.

I guess we'll have to wait for the next World Cup (if there is one) to see Lehtonen excel in a true best-on-best.

Oh my. First Kiprusoft and now Lehtonen??? Gimme a break! Wiht only 1 average NHL goalie (Niddymagi) Finland is toast. Bye bue medal hopes... :shakehead


before you diss him, you might want to make sure you spell Niittymaki right.



This is something Finland should have been ready for when they picked Lehtonen, after he had 20 minutes of game action all season


If Toivonen is hurt, and Toskala is in and out and up and down like he has been, I think Finland goes with Jussi Markkanen

So are all you Finns going to hate Lehtonen now? Sounds very similar to what Kipper said "Doctors said it was best".

Lehtonen what a jerk!!!! Not playing for his country because of an injury.

:biglaugh:

Oh and before you say Kipper faked the injury or whatever you loser's try to stir up while you sit at home all day find some facts.

Too bad for Kari. I don't like the position that Team USA GM/Atlanta Thrashers GM has put himself in with this, but apparently Kari is just not fit enough to handle that hectic Olympic schedule.

My prediction: Finland wins a medal on the back of Antero Nittymaki. This kid is an absolute stud. He got off to a very bad starts and had some bad games at the end of his 17 consecutive, but when he's rested, he's a top 10 quality goaltender in the NHL, imo. I don't think goaltending will be a problem for this team at all, Nittymaki deserved to be the starter with or without Lehtonen (based on this season and last for that matter).

It's amazing how these terminally ill patients are playing as #1 goalies in their own hockey clubs.

You mean doing what they are paid to do?

If I'm an Atlanta fan, I'm estatic about this annoucement. I'd rather have my top players put their priority in order and not risk the guy writing his cheque so he can pursue personal interests.

We still got Niittymäki and Toivonen (hopefully). They have been as good as Lehtonen this season, if not better.

Maybe we can name Kipper instead of Lehtonen? =)

If the hockey union had some balls they'd name him as he's playing and tell the ioc to get bettman to force Calgary..
Already now we need like an in-depth doctors report to give to the ioc so Niittymäki can be finalised in place of Kipper.. now we'll need the same for Lehtonen, but that should be easier as h'es played so little. Kipper will be tougher to argue as he's been playign so much.

Other than that, ouch, Toivonen and Markkanen would the next in line. Though only Hannu gives me any confidence, Markkanen, Norrena etc I don't trust as they didn't do too well a couple of years ago in the Worlds.

Maybe we can trade with the US for Tim Thomas and give them like Kevin Kantee (half- american) or Kai Kantola (half-finnish).

On the other hand this just shows how deep we are in goal now. Though right now I'd kill to get Pasi Nurminen back.
But we still have the 3 r's Rinne, Rask, Rämö, in the pipeline..

If the hockey union had some balls they'd name him as he's playing and tell the ioc to get bettman to force Calgary....
:biglaugh:

This really sucks. Also Toivonen is injured...all we need now is that Niittymäki becomes injured as well :shakehead

where does Hurme fit into the equation?

You mean doing what they are paid to do?

If I'm an Atlanta fan, I'm estatic about this annoucement. I'd rather have my top players put their priority in order and not risk the guy writing his cheque so he can pursue personal interests.

Thats not very sportsmanship thinking.

Sad news. Kippers situation also. I have thought about it and have speculated among friends. Let's say that for example Brodeur had the same kind of injury like Kipper has. Would he want play for Team Canada? I'd say yes. Would he be allowed to play for Team Canada by his respective NHL team? I'd say yes. It's just the lack of balls by the finnish ice hockey federation to challenge these NHL teams to back up their claim by having a neutral side doctor (which means a doctor that has nothing to do with both parties) to examine the player. I still wonder how Kipper can play so much if he has an injury that has reported. Why he doesn't rest and try the heal his injury. This would benefit him and his respective NHL team in the long run. Now, I must say that I don't hate him for listening to his team's doctors. The team still pays him for playing there and he has responsibilities with them. Unfortunately, there's is no money for playing for your country. It's an honor wear your national team shirt and to play for your country but I understand Kippers and Lehtonen's situation.

Forget about Kipper and Lehtonen already. If they feel they need rehab time during Olympics, then they won't play....it´s quite simple. We just have to go with other goalies now. But the crying after these two won't help a bit. Of course I´m disappointed about their decisions also but it´s their choice....we can do nothing about it.

I trust in Niittymäki :)

Btw. Has Toivonen been playing lately or is he still injured?

You mean doing what they are paid to do?

If I'm an Atlanta fan, I'm estatic about this annoucement. I'd rather have my top players put their priority in order and not risk the guy writing his cheque so he can pursue personal interests.

If they are so sick that they cant play, they would not be playing. Simple as that. There are other goalies and players with minor injuries from other countries, but nobody would even bother to suggest a canadian guy would drop out. You'd be a whole less understanding if that happens, but I guess it just needs to happen to your country before you can see from another perspective.

If they are so sick that they cant play, they would not be playing. Simple as that. There are other goalies and players with minor injuries from other countries, but nobody would even bother to suggest a canadian guy would drop out. You'd be a whole less understanding if that happens, but I guess it just needs to happen to your country before you can see from another perspective.

I know what you mean. Funny how all the canadian stars goes to olympics while the euro ones drop out decided by he NHL teams. Watch Peter Forsberg being the next.

I know what you mean. Funny how all the canadian stars goes to olympics while the euro ones drop out decided by he NHL teams. Watch Peter Forsberg being the next.

No NHL team has decided anything, the playes make the final decision.

No NHL team has decided anything, the playes make the final decision.

we don't know whats going on behind the scenes...the influence could be big.

I feel ashamed(being half finnish)... it really pisses me off to hear these quitters trying to justify their decision to let down our beloved national team. What happened with finnish pride and loyalty? I wonder if this is a symptom of some change of mentality in general going on in Finland. :dunno:

Now, if Sami Kapanen also drops out, Finland is reduced to a one-line team with average goaltending... again. :(

We ran out of goalies. Soon our only option is Mika Noronen :shakehead

Niittymäki is better anyway ,kari is just a big loser! :biglaugh: How about Myllys and Takko?

What happened with finnish pride and loyalty? I wonder if this is a symptom of some change of mentality in general going on in Finland. :dunno:


yes,i sense there is something going on.We follow sweden steps in everything,Bye bye finland ,welcome Finden :propeller

This is getting ridiculous. I think that the players ought be obliged to play for their national teams unless they're injured. If they're not injured, they have to play, period.

Kiprusoff, Lehtonen, Fedorov ... all 3 are healthy and yet will take a couple of weeks to rest ... what a shame.

You mean doing what they are paid to do?

If I'm an Atlanta fan, I'm estatic about this annoucement. I'd rather have my top players put their priority in order and not risk the guy writing his cheque so he can pursue personal interests.
This must be the 2nd time in a month I agree with you, it's getting scary! ;) The NHL is paying these guys' salary, it needs to be priority #1; glad to see some of them are making it so.

It makes me so sad to see Finnish posters (and everyone else) dismiss Norrena. He's been one of the best goalies in the SEL for a few years now, I guess it's the "Sweden" part that makes him disliked. I wish he hadn't backed out of a contract with Tampa last summer, I'd love to have him here.

This must be the 2nd time in a month I agree with you, it's getting scary! ;) The NHL is paying these guys' salary, it needs to be priority #1; glad to see some of them are making it so.


Interesting point of view.

But I still think that a player owes more to his country than his current employer.

If Lehtonen wasn't born in Finland, where hockey is popular, he wouldn't have gone to a hockey school where he learned all he can do now. If not for his country, he would be nothing. All the money's he's ever made, he owes it to his country. Same goes for a guy like Federov.

My prediction: Finland wins a medal on the back of Antero Nittymaki. This kid is an absolute stud. He got off to a very bad starts and had some bad games at the end of his 17 consecutive, but when he's rested, he's a top 10 quality goaltender in the NHL, imo. I don't think goaltending will be a problem for this team at all, Nittymaki deserved to be the starter with or without Lehtonen (based on this season and last for that matter).

My predicition...your prediction doesn't happen.

Please ,send me PM Blacklabel if you have something to say.Tough guy?Not really

Thanks, but I don't need more friends. I have enough them. :propeller

The NHL is paying these guys' salary, it needs to be priority #1; glad to see some of them are making it so.I'll respond here: http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=216036

Finland's royally screwed. Now all of our top options before the season: Kipper, Lehts and Nurminen are all out. Now on top of this Toivonen is injured and probably won't be ready. It's clear that Waddle pressured Lehtonen to skip the olympics. The Atlanta front office was fuming when Lehtonen was selected to the Finnish team, so the writing was on the wall even then. Sami Kapanen said a while ago that that he's going to take a lot of **** regardless what he decides, so I think it's clear that there is a lot of pressure from NHL teams.

Finland's royally screwed. Now all of our top options before the season: Kipper, Lehts and Nurminen are all out. Now on top of this Toivonen is injured and probably won't be ready. It's clear that Waddle pressured Lehtonen to skip the olympics. The Atlanta front office was fuming when Lehtonen was selected to the Finnish team, so the writing was on the wall even then. Sami Kapanen said a while ago that that he's going to take a lot of **** regardless what he decides, so I think it's clear that there is a lot of pressure from NHL teams.

Yeah...it is very depressing and I am starting to lose interest in this sport. I've been a hockey fan all my life but there's a limit to everything. The Olympics is the pinnacle of sports competition and people skipping/being pressured to skip the Olympics because of minor injuries/risk of injuries makes me sick to my stomach. This is NOT how things should be. A couple more of our key guys turning the big O down and I won't even bother about the whole thing any more.

It seems that what is going unspoken is the fact that these two goalies ( Kipper and Lehtonen) are taking banned substances to be able to play pain free. No problem in the NHL but big problem for the Olympic games. Is that not possible?

Yeah...it is very depressing and I am starting to lose interest in this sport.

The sport? Why? It's NHL's fault.

It's NHL's fault that we didn't have best-on-best Olympics before.

It's NHL's fault that there only was the Canada Cup, which was played under NHL rules/ schedule anyway.

And now, as we're supposed to get a decent tourney, NHL teams are putting pressure on the players to skip the Olympics? :madfire:

The sport is fine. Only the NHL should be blamed.

It's NHL's fault that we didn't have best-on-best Olympics before.And of course the NHL schedule has to keep its useless 82 games in the Olympic years too.. and shut down for only 15 days, constricting the Olympic tournament in 12 days. :dunno:

The sport? Why? It's NHL's fault.

It's NHL's fault that we didn't have best-on-best Olympics before.

It's NHL's fault that there only was the Canada Cup, which was played under NHL rules/ schedule anyway.

And now, as we're supposed to get a decent tourney, NHL teams are putting pressure on the players to skip the Olympics? :madfire:

The sport is fine. Only the NHL should be blamed.

Well, most of my favourite players play in the NHL and not being able to see those guys play in a true best-on-best tourney (although pretty soon the tourney doesn't look like one anymore) just sucks the life out of the whole thing. But I agree, NHL teams are the culprits here and I shouldn't blame the game for it.

The NHL could have it easier on themselves and the players had they e.g. started the season about a week earlier, thus giving time for a longer Olympic break (last games on Saturday, season resumes on Wednesday or Thursday after the games).

The NHL could have it easier on themselves and the players had they e.g. started the season about a week earlier, thus giving time for a longer Olympic break (last games on Saturday, season resumes on Wednesday or Thursday after the games).So obvious truth!
Well, not so obvious it seems.. :banghead:

Well, most of my favourite players play in the NHL and not being able to see those guys play in a true best-on-best tourney (although pretty soon the tourney doesn't look like one anymore) just sucks the life out of the whole thing. But I agree, NHL teams are the culprits here and I shouldn't blame the game for it.

I think you're blowing this out of proportion now. How many players have confirmed that they're skipping the Olympics? It's just a handful. I understand your frustration that many of them are Fins, but I would say 95% of the players named to the 12 teams will be in Torino unless legitimately injured.

No harm, we have plenty of goalies... ;)

Finland's royally screwed. Now all of our top options before the season: Kipper, Lehts and Nurminen are all out. Now on top of this Toivonen is injured and probably won't be ready. It's clear that Waddle pressured Lehtonen to skip the olympics. The Atlanta front office was fuming when Lehtonen was selected to the Finnish team, so the writing was on the wall even then. Sami Kapanen said a while ago that that he's going to take a lot of **** regardless what he decides, so I think it's clear that there is a lot of pressure from NHL teams.

kapanen is on the flyers right? if Kapanen get **** for going, imagine what Forsberg will get. Sad.

kapanen is on the flyers right? if Kapanen get **** for going, imagine what Forsberg will get. Sad.

True, but I have faith in Forsberg. He'll go to the Olympics even if he's injured. Not just because it's Swedens (or the Golden generation's) "last chance" to really compete for a gold medal in a long time, but because Foppa's a guy with great attitude. :clap:

Someone mentioned losing interest in hockey cause of all the quitters. I feel the same way, cuz let's say if both Sami Kapanen and Forsberg drops out, the Turin Olympics will lose a lot of it's excitement before it even started, from a scandinavian perspective.

It's just the lack of balls by the finnish ice hockey federation to challenge these NHL teams to back up their claim by having a neutral side doctor (which means a doctor that has nothing to do with both parties) to examine the player. I still wonder how Kipper can play so much if he has an injury that has reported. Why he doesn't rest and try the heal his injury.
Oh the conspiracy stories.

Ever consider... pain killers? It's a chornic hip injury, he can play through it. In fact, he was injured in the first game of the regular season.

But no, Kiprusoff should have played and got Finland disqualified from the tournment for taking banned substances that are in pain killers, right?

If they are so sick that they cant play, they would not be playing.
And that's why the withdrew, simple as that.

IThere are other goalies and players with minor injuries from other countries, but nobody would even bother to suggest a canadian guy would drop out. You'd be a whole less understanding if that happens, but I guess it just needs to happen to your country before you can see from another perspective.
No I wouldn't. In fact, I hope Iginla and Regehr withdraw from the Olympic from a mysterious injury :sarcasm: so they'll be fresh for the playoffs. To be honest, I don't have very much "Team Canada pride" - I'm a Flames fan before I'm a Team Canada fan. I'd rather see the Flames win the cup then Canada win a Gold.

This is getting ridiculous. I think that the players ought be obliged to play for their national teams unless they're injured. If they're not injured, they have to play, period.

Should that be the same for the World Championships?

Just wondering

Oh the conspiracy stories.

Ever consider... pain killers? It's a chornic hip injury, he can play through it. In fact, he was injured in the first game of the regular season.

But no, Kiprusoff should have played and got Finland disqualified from the tournment for taking banned substances that are in pain killers, right?
So you are saying that NHL is pro doping? What happens now when the NHL has agreed to ban doping?

Pain killers? Maybe, most likely but wouldn't it be better for him the heal the injury right after it happened? That would have been best for him and would have extended his career in the long run. Pain killers allow him to play but injury gets worse every game and it gets longer and harder to heal properly. It would have been better for the Flames as well in the long run imo.

Pain killers? Maybe, most likely but wouldn't it be better for him the heal the injury right after it happened? That would have been best for him and would have extended his career in the long run. Pain killers allow him to play but injury gets worse every game and it gets longer and harder to heal properly. It would have been better for the Flames as well in the long run imo.
There will be no "long run" if Kiprusoff sits out 4 weeks. That's why Kiprusoff is sitting out the Olympic break. If Sutter can get a backup, Kiprusoff might get another week or so too to fully heal it. Otherwise, he's back on those pain killers.

But no, Kiprusoff should have played and got Finland disqualified from the tournment for taking banned substances that are in pain killers, right?Not every pain killers contains banned substances.

And that's why the withdrew, simple as that.If they are so sick that they already know they won't be able to play one month later, they wouldn't have been playing two weeks ago for their NHL teams either. Got it?

In fact, I hope Iginla and Regehr withdraw from the Olympic from a mysterious injury so they'll be fresh for the playoffs. To be honest, I don't have very much "Team Canada pride" - I'm a Flames fan before I'm a Team Canada fan. I'd rather see the Flames win the cup then Canada win a Gold.After reading your other posts, this is not surprising at all.. and in the end you seem to suggest people wondering about those injuries are not on drugs.. :sarcasm:

These Calgary fans just came here to mock us finns. I just wonder where are the manners?

Sami Kapanen is out too, and i for one dont hate any of these players, hope they'll get healthy and keeps playing hockey.

So you are saying that NHL is pro doping? What happens now when the NHL has agreed to ban doping?

I think NHL is just testing things like steroids while in Olympics there is much larger group of drugs which are beeing tested. Ie. last Olympics Tommy Salo couldn't take drugs for some minor cold since most of drugst for cold in NA are containing stuf which are/could be show as positive in drugtest in Olympics. I wouldn't be surprised if Kipper&Lehtonen would get drugs which are totally illegal in Olympics.

Not saying that's the reason for this, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised of it.

Well seeing how Niittymaki has been better than Lehtonen and Toivonen this year, and outplayed them both in the playoffs last spring, only Kipper has been a big loss.

Toivonen: 2.63 GAA, .914 SV%
Niittymaki: 2.82 GAA, .899 SV%

Toivonen has the better numbers behind a worse defence. I don't see how you can easily say that Niittymaki has outplayed Hannu Toivonen.

Also, for the AHL playoffs, Providence was a team that should not have made the playoffs. They made it, and beat Manchester and Lowell, who were much better teams. Why? It was because Hannu Toivonen gave them a chance. If it wasn't for Hannu, Providence would have missed the playoffs last year.

the way Juuso Riksman has played this season, id rather see him than Norrena. Toivonen and Niittymaki to be the first 2...

Not every pain killers contains banned substances.

What exactly is the banned substance in pain killers?


If they are so sick that they already know they won't be able to play one month later, they wouldn't have been playing two weeks ago for their NHL teams either. Got it?
Because the injury is a chronic injury. Got it?

I keep on bringing this up, and it keeps on blowing over some people's heads. Kiprusoff is an employee of the Calgary Flames. Kiprusoff is paid by the Calgary Flames to be a No 1 goalie. His priorities are to being a No 1 goalie and playing 65-70 games for the Calgary Flames. That is why he is getting paid 3.5 million dollars by the Calgary Flames. If he can play, he is going to play for the Calgary Flames. Playing for Finland is not the concern of the Calgary Flames and would be for personal reasons. Now because Kiprusoff is healthy enough to play for the Calgary Flames but his injuries will not heal without rest Kiprusoff is healing it during a schedualed break, rather then pursuing interests.

Got it?

Note: Please note the bold words to help you figure out what you couldn't figure out before

Playing for Finland is not the concern of the Calgary Flames and would be for personal reasons. Now because Kiprusoff is healthy enough to play for the Calgary Flames but his injuries will not heal without rest Kiprusoff is healing it during a schedualed break, rather then pursuing interests. What we are discussing in this thread is the eventuality (probability) of the Flames influencing/forcing his decision.. (which would be against the agreement the NHL, hence the Flames too, signed with the IIHF. During the Olympic break Kiprusoff owes nothing to the Flames). Would that be 100% his own freewill idea to not pursuing his interests and rest during the Olympic break then you would have point.

Note: Please note the bold words to help you figure out the point of the whole thread.

What we are discussing in this thread is the eventuality (probability) of the Flames influencing/forcing his decision.. (which would be against the agreement the NHL, hence the Flames too, signed with the IIHF. During the Olympic break Kiprusoff owes nothing to the Flames). Would that be 100% his own freewill idea to not pursuing his interests and rest during the Olympic break then you would have point.

Note: Please note the bold words to help you figure out the point of the whole thread.
Way to be completely out to lunch.

Did the Flames force Kiprusoff to withdraw?

Or did they say that Kiprusoff would not be given time during the NHL schedual to rest his injury? You said it above, the Flames influenced, they didn't force. My quote clearly explains (which completely blew over your head) the reasons why the Calgary Flames have an interest in what Mikka Kiprusoff does that will affect their franchise.

Way to be completely out to lunch.

Did the Flames force Kiprusoff to withdraw?

Or did they say that Kiprusoff would not be given time during the NHL schedual to rest his injury? You said it above, the Flames influenced, they didn't force. My quote clearly explains (which completely blew over your head) the reasons why the Calgary Flames have an interest in what Mikka Kiprusoff does that will affect their franchise.

You know there's more to life than money.

Who give's a **** how much Flames has put money on kipper.

Finns still needs to prove the IIHF why they have to change Kipper and some others, like some other Finn earlier stated.

It's pointless to argue with some of these Flames fans, they just keep pushing althou this matter is already been dealt.

It's pointless to argue with some of these Flames fans,

Exactly. Flames fans are clueless. Kipper isn't injured..he's started 40+ games this year already.

Exactly. Flames fans are clueless. Kipper isn't injured..he's started 40+ games this year already.
He is hurt, not injured. There is a difference. He can still play but there is no doubt pain to deal with.

You know there's more to life than money.

Is a 2 week tournament more then a career?

Would you give up YOUR career for a 2 week thing?


Who give's a **** how much Flames has put money on kipper.

How about people who have influence?


It's pointless to argue with some of these Flames fans, they just keep pushing althou this matter is already been dealt.
Replace Flames with Finns and you know how I feel.

Exactly. Flames fans are clueless. Kipper isn't injured..he's started 40+ games this year already.
Well, it looks like you really know what's going on then.

Well, it looks like you really know what's going on then.

I do. :teach:

Your right. Kiprusoff and Lehtonen arn't injured. The NHL is just trying to screw over Finland. It's all a conspiracy! :teach:

:propeller

Your right. Kiprusoff and Lehtonen arn't injured. The NHL is just trying to screw over Finland. It's all a conspiracy! :teach:

:propeller

Well Lehtonen's is legit as he missed half the season. Kipper on the other hand has missed 0..count them 0 games due to his "injury." :propeller

Your right. Kiprusoff and Lehtonen arn't injured. The NHL is just trying to screw over Finland. It's all a conspiracy! :teach:

:propeller

I think the only ones calling it a conspiracy are you guys who think the flames and thrashers are not doing anything wrong. Why is it that you have to try and change the claim of these people who are only saying that it's clear the teams have influenced in their decision and that it is against the agreement? Simply, it is no conspiracy, it's just a few GM's pissing over a country that is less significant to them, to gain an edge.

You go ahead and ridicule people and come up with these conspiracy etc BS, but that does not change the fact that these decisions have been influenced by the teams.

What murky was saying about other hockey fans being immature ****** to others....you sure are a fine example phanuthier. You have absolutely NO capability to think from another point of view, all you see is your own perspective.

I think the only ones calling it a conspiracy are you guys who think the flames and thrashers are not doing anything wrong.
Yeah, thats really a conspiracy. :help:

Why is it that you have to try and change the claim of these people who are only saying that it's clear the teams have influenced in their decision and that it is against the agreement?
I didn't change anything. I backed up reasons why it is fully within their rights and interests to protect their assets.


What murky was saying about other hockey fans being immature ****** to others....you sure are a fine example phanuthier. You have absolutely NO capability to think from another point of view, all you see is your own perspective.
Haha ok.

Maybe its because I actually understand that the NHL runs as a business, and knows hockey isn't Kiprusoff holding hands with Lehtonen, skipping through the flower fields?

Maybe its also because what I'm defending has already happened, that my arguments have already been proven true, and the points I'm arguing are merely to justify what has already come to pass, rather then your ideal little world that the NHL, its teams and all its players should bend over for Finland and the Olympics.

Well Lehtonen's is legit as he missed half the season. Kipper on the other hand has missed 0..count them 0 games due to his "injury." :propeller
Maybe you should contact these guys.

Clearly a conspiracy

http://www.popmatters.com/tv/reviews/x/images/x-files.jpg

He is hurt, not injured. There is a difference. He can still play but there is no doubt pain to deal with.He should rest before the Olympics.

He should rest before the Olympics.

If he was seriously hurt, then the flames would make him as they wouldn't risk their investment. Since they know the injury is no more worse than a paper cut, they continue to play kipper every game, while throwing sauve to the waiver wolves.

I simply agree with the fins on this one. Where did the olympic spirit go?

Olympics should be one of the finest events you could compete in. Kiprusoff should been allowed to go imo.

Olympics should be one of the finest events you could compete in. Kiprusoff should been allowed to go imo.
Last time I checked, he's allowed to go and its his decision. He just choose not to.

Last time I checked, he's allowed to go and its his decision. He just choose not to.

And you are lecturing me about living in a fantasy world?

EVERYONE except you and some other yahoo understands the situation...they were pressured, be it mild or hard, it's as clear as day, it could not be any more obvious. I understand that NHL teams are a business, and business protects it's assets if possible. They have a way to keep at least some smaller nations players at bay, because they wont get into too much trouble for it, so they are doing it and the players play along. If a player stood out and said "My team tried to make me skip the olympics" the team would be in trouble but the player would also get a reputation as "not loyal" for blowing the horn on his own team.

This is not a conspiracy, you have admitted there might have been "pressure". So what is the problem? NHL agreed to the terms that players would go to the olympics. There are ways to go around that, you know it, I know it. But you are the one saying it is fine to bend the rules. And I said it was morally and ethically weak, and I do not like it. I guess we just have a very different view of the world...unfair treatment just does not excite me as much as it excites you, quite obviously. You are willing to accept it and you even keep on defending such tactics.

And you are lecturing me about living in a fantasy world?

EVERYONE except you and some other yahoo understands the situation...they were pressured, be it mild or hard, it's as clear as day, it could not be any more obvious.
So then you agree that it was the player's decision, and not the NHL team then.

So I don't know what your disagreeing with

They have a way to keep at least some smaller nations players at bay, because they wont get into too much trouble for it, so they are doing it and the players play along.
Yeah, that's really the reason, I'm sure.

Sure didn't stop Pittsburg from keeping Sidney Crosby from playing for Canada at the WJC, or Columbas keeping Rick Nash from playing at the WJC.

I doubt Darryl Sutter or Don Waddell are afraid of anyone in the IIHF, Team Canada or Team USA when it comes to having an opinion on the matter. Heck, Team Canada is already bending over backwards to try and keep Darryl's brother Brent in the Team Canada program.


This is not a conspiracy, you have admitted there might have been "pressure". So what is the problem? NHL agreed to the terms that players would go to the olympics. There are ways to go around that, you know it, I know it. But you are the one saying it is fine to bend the rules.
Where did I say it was fine to bend the rules?

Where in the rules does it say that an injured player must play in the Olympics?

Where in the rules does it say an NHL team should put Olympic interests instead of their own? In fact, I can provide a direct example of the contrary. Carolina was going to let Arturis Irbe play for Latvia to make it past the qualifying round, but the NHL stepped in and said Carolina must ice the best possible lineup. There you go, the NHL - not teams, but the NHL itself - directly stepping in showing that NHL interests are far more important then Olympic interests.

The NHL agreed to allow NHL players to play in the Olympics, not that they are forced to play. Find me one source where it states that the NHL agreed to force players to play in the Olympics. Please, show me, because that's the only case you've got.


And I said it was morally and ethically weak, and I do not like it. I guess we just have a very different view of the world...unfair treatment just does not excite me as much as it excites you, quite obviously. You are willing to accept it and you even keep on defending such tactics.
I merely just understand the harsh reality of business. Don't bother trying to question me on ethics, my career requires me to take a test on morals and ethics to do my job. It's just business, and it doesn't violate any sanction of society or prove to be detrimental to any sanction of society in any moral, ethical or financial sense.

The moral and ethical line is there when the guy CAN play for your team but CAN'T for the other team. That is double standard. Either they are not in shape to play or they are, choose one and stick with it. Anything else is hypocrisy.

You have to take tests for moral and ethical values, yet you somehow exclude the business life from every moral and ethical responsibility, saying it's ok and fine because it's business? In my world moral and ethical values are there in everything..in business too. You just dismiss them because "it's business"? Yeah, I think I am in a position to question your view on moral and ethics, if you think there are walks of life were they should not apply. We both know the reality, big businesses step on moral and ethics. You even know that it happened here, but for some reason it is too hard for you to admit that your flames might have done something questionable. I can admit when my fav team does something questionable, it's not my shame but theirs.

There is no rule that players HAVE TO play in the olympics, but both Kiprusoff and especially Lehtonen was excited to go. Kipper played the ***** role better, Lehtonen was obviously even more disappointed and let it show in his comments after the decision had been made for him. As he said "we then decided that was my only option". Just a week before he was excited about going, he did not get injured again or nothing like that, and suddenly it's his only option to skip? You really gonna tell me Thrashers had nothing to do with his decision?

Same with Kipper...he had a whole different deal with team Finland, and once it got public, it took him a day to do a 180 turn, despite the deal he had with team finland. Sure...of course there wasn't any interference there by flames... :sarcasm:

has any canadian been pressured to not go to olympics?

Or did they say that Kiprusoff would not be given time during the NHL schedual to rest his injury? You said it above, the Flames influenced, they didn't force. My quote clearly explains (which completely blew over your head) the reasons why the Calgary Flames have an interest in what Mikka Kiprusoff does that will affect their franchise.LOL, i guess you would expect the Flames to go out and announce: "we are using every weapon we have to discourage Kiprusoff from playing in the Olympics! " IF that was case, right?

I didn't change anything.You have changed what people have been saying. As psycho_dad explained we were not talking about conspiracy.

I backed up reasons why it is fully within their rights and interests to protect their assets.The fact you don't understand or don't care about the other people's posts where they explained why you are wrong doesn't mean you have backed up reasons why it would be fully within their rights and interests to protect their assets (going against a contract they agreed before.)

..that my arguments have already been proven true.yeah, by the Flames saying they didn't put any pressure on Kiprusoff right?

Where in the rules does it say that an injured player must play in the Olympics?It's clear we are talking with a deaf or with someone who is not listening. Whatever the case, the result is the same..we are losing our time.

So, enjoy your Flames and hope Kiprusoff isn't going to choke in the playoffs after playing 80 regular season games through injury!

The moral and ethical line is there when the guy CAN play for your team but CAN'T for the other team. That is double standard. Either they are not in shape to play or they are, choose one and stick with it. Anything else is hypocrisy.
That was not tested in either situation. The Calgary Flames and Atlanta Thrashers made a suggestion to Kiprusoff and Lehtonen, they didn't force anything on anyone. That's no different from a family doctor or a father giving a suggestion. The ultimate decision came to Kiprusoff and Lehonenn.

Thus, no moral or ethical issues come into question.


You have to take tests for moral and ethical values, yet you somehow exclude the business life from every moral and ethical responsibility, saying it's ok and fine because it's business? In my world moral and ethical values are there in everything..in business too. You just dismiss them because "it's business"? Yeah, I think I am in a position to question your view on moral and ethics, if you think there are walks of life were they should not apply. We both know the reality, big businesses step on moral and ethics. You even know that it happened here, but for some reason it is too hard for you to admit that your flames might have done something questionable. I can admit when my fav team does something questionable, it's not my shame but theirs.

Wrong. The reality of the world is that moral and ethical values are not just personal, they are standards used to protect either an individual from a business, a society from a business or business from a business. In this case, the first point does not apply because that issue has not been crossed. Should it have been, and lets say the Flames FORCED Kiprusoff to stay, Kiprusoff could file suite against the Calgary Flames on the backing of the players union, because he is protected. That avenue has not been breached. The point you are arguing is not one of which we are dealing with an individual and a business, but a business and a business - the Olympics in the NHL. You are questioning should the NHL have an impact on the Olympics? Well considering that one business (The NHL and the Calgary Flames) are protecting an investment and an asset, it is fully within their rights as the investor. The other business can cry and moan all they like, but the reality of the situation is that they hold no power.

I know and understand this, because I know and understand that in industries where morals and ethics are an issue, associations are formed to protect the profession from society/business and vis versa, and in it simply does not apply in this case. In industiries where it does become an issue, standards are put forth, and this simply is not the case.

There are no moral or ethical issues called into question for investors making recommendations to protect their assets. So you have no argument here.

The only thing happened here is that your country took a hit when a very good player withdrew, and you find a need to place blame somewhere. I simply realize that it is the nature of the beast, and understand how the NHL runs its business.


You have to take tests for moral and ethical values, yet you somehow exclude the
There is no rule that players HAVE TO play in the olympics, but both Kiprusoff and especially Lehtonen was excited to go.
Really? Wasn't he a 3rd man last time, and something happened where he withdrew from the tournament? Or made a remark about unfair treatment?

Yeah, I guess he was real excited to go there.


he did not get injured again or nothing like that, and suddenly it's his only option to skip? You really gonna tell me Thrashers had nothing to do with his decision?

Of coarse they did. As an employer and a big part of his life and career, Lehtonen talks with the Atlanta Thrashers and their team's doctors. No difference from talking to his father for advice.


Same with Kipper...he had a whole different deal with team Finland, and once it got public, it took him a day to do a 180 turn, despite the deal he had with team finland. Sure...of course there wasn't any interference there by flames... :sarcasm:
Finland reports the Calgary Flames forced him to withdraw. North America reports that Kiprusoff did not want to be chosen, and told Kurri he did not want to play, but Kurri named him anyways hoping he'd play and Kiprusoff was very suprised. Kurri said he talked to Kiprusoff and said they would decide at the time, while Kiprusoff said he had met with doctors that morning and they said it would take 3-4 weeks to heal that injury, and when Kiprusoff went to Sutter and asked, Sutter said he would not be given time off during the regular season to heal his injury.

Take what you want from that. Personally, I see a bigger issue such as medication that may be banned by the IOC, that doctors had told Kiprusoff after he had been named - it wasn't an issue before, but was now - and that's why Kiprusoff withdrew. Or maybe it was a combination of that and Sutter saying he Kiprusoff would not be given a chance to rest during the regular season.

All in all, no morals or ethics are called into question here.

I think the only ones calling it a conspiracy are you guys who think the flames and thrashers are not doing anything wrong. Why is it that you have to try and change the claim of these people who are only saying that it's clear the teams have influenced in their decision and that it is against the agreement? Simply, it is no conspiracy, it's just a few GM's pissing over a country that is less significant to them, to gain an edge.

You go ahead and ridicule people and come up with these conspiracy etc BS, but that does not change the fact that these decisions have been influenced by the teams.

What murky was saying about other hockey fans being immature ****** to others....you sure are a fine example phanuthier. You have absolutely NO capability to think from another point of view, all you see is your own perspective. :handclap: :handclap: :handclap:

The fact you don't understand or don't care about the other people's posts where they explained why you are wrong doesn't mean you have backed up reasons why it would be fully within their rights and interests to protect their assets (going against a contract they agreed before.)

I have fully explained with logic and reason, and it has been shown as it has come to pass.

The difference is that Finland posters are *****ing and moaning and basing their arguments on emotion, not logic. Some (ie. you) so far as to believe there is even a conspiracy or ethical issues come into question. They don't :propeller

The agreement - which you have clearly showed that you know nothing about - merely states that NHL players may be released to participate in Olympic competition. I know in Calgary, the only issue is that Kiprusoff was paid $3.5 million to play 65-70 games for the Calgary Flames, and would not be given rest or detract from the plan just so Kiprusoff can pursue personal interests. There is no agreement in the deal with the IIHF by which NHL teams must bend over and do whatever they must do to ensure the interests of the Olympics. NHL teams also have no right to keep a player from joining Olympic competition, which they agreed to, but that issue is not called into question here. The only issue is what advice NHL teams give to Kiprusoff and Lehtonen that you disagree with, and there is no sanction in the IIHF that would suggest that anything has been breached here.


It's clear we are talking with a deaf or with someone who is not listening.
No, you are dealing with someone who argues with logic and understanding, rather then emotion. Point and case?


So, enjoy your Flames and hope Kiprusoff isn't going to choke in the playoffs after playing 80 regular season games through injury!
Petty spite

You claim you argue with logic and reasoning, yet you fail to see the logical connection in a "strong suggestion from your employer" and "moral and ethic issues".

Once you have some sort of influence on someone, you have some sort of control over them too. Just like if I told my wife not to go to a bar with her friends because I wanted her to stay home to "avoid possible problems". She would know, that my suggestion is a loaded one, if she does not comply, there will be trust issues, there will be me "getting back at her" in different ways, forcing my own will and stepping over her wishes because she decided not to listen to mine. See that is control, and employers have the similar control over their assets, especially in a very highly paying job like professional athlete. If you are paid 3 million a year, you probably listen to the hand that feeds you. Now here comes a moral issue. If the team says, "you better rest during the olympics", it's not as simple as you have tried to water it down...it's not a situation where you can just go "sorry but NHL has a rule that I can go". Of course you CAN do that, but you know it will come back to haunt you.

When there is control, there is a moral issue. If you really used logic and reasoning, you would know this, and you would not deny it.

You claim you argue with logic and reasoning, yet you fail to see the logical connection in a "strong suggestion from your employer" and "moral and ethic issues".

You honestly think there's a moral issue in a team making a recommendation to its player? :help:


When there is control, there is a moral issue. If you really used logic and reasoning, you would know this, and you would not deny it.
No there isn't. I have taken coarses and have to take tests on morals and ethics as required by my profession, and this is simply not true. Just because its unfair, don't mean there is a ethical question here. This is a business decision, and you are mixing it up with personal morals.

I have taken coarses and have to take tests on morals and ethics as required by my profession

I guess you skipped Morals&Ethics 101 :sarcasm:

I have already asked this elsewhere but: can an NHL team flat out deny an injured player the chance to heal his injuries? If a player absolutely positively wants to immediately start healing his injury and the doctors also recommend it, does an NHL team have a right to force him?

I guess you skipped Morals&Ethics 101 :sarcasm:

Add English to that as well. "coarses".... :biglaugh:

You honestly think there's a moral issue in a team making a recommendation to its player? :help:


No there isn't. I have taken coarses and have to take tests on morals and ethics as required by my profession, and this is simply not true. Just because its unfair, don't mean there is a ethical question here. This is a business decision, and you are mixing it up with personal morals.

You have either failed that course, or the course was designed by Phillip morris tobacco company. It seems like you have created your own sense of "morality" which does not apply in business decision. Where do they teach this course? In the famous McDonalds sponsored "hamburger university" of Chicago?

You have either failed that course, or the course was designed by Phillip morris tobacco company. It seems like you have created your own sense of "morality" which does not apply in business decision. Where do they teach this course? In the famous McDonalds sponsored "hamburger university" of Chicago?:snide:

I think we are done here.

This is the 4th thread I have had to close on the Kiprusoff vs Calgary vs Finland subject. My patience is stretched to the limit on this subject. Also, this is a hockey board, not an English class.

Closed.