If your Gretzky, crosby, staal, or spezza [Archive]

Hobofish

11-27-2005, 01:51 PM

I personally would take Spezza. He is the one who seems like he has the most polish and would be the most ready to play at this tournament. Plus, he has proven that he plays well with Heatley.

However, if one of these guys makes the team, it will be Crosby. He is the new 'Golden Boy' of Canadian hockey, and thus they would be inclined to pick him in order to create a 'buzz'. Plus, with the influence of Mario Lemieux (who likes Crosby) and Jacques Martin (who dislikes Spezza), it would be hard to see politics not playing a factor.

If Crosby makes the team and the stats stay in roughly the same proportions then do now, then Gretz should be fired. I hate to say it but you can't hand Olympic team jobs to people that arn't the best. Spezza or Staal would both help Canada alot more then Crosby would. Crosby being on the team as a starter (I wouldn't argue with him sitting in the press box for "experiance" would just be total bias. Gretz should be fired if Crosby makes the starting lineup. Simple.

Zine

11-27-2005, 01:53 PM

Easily Spezza...instant chemistry with Heatley. Because of the big ice they're gonna need a linemate with some speed though. Gagne is a good choice.

formsoldier*

11-27-2005, 01:56 PM

sensens

11-27-2005, 01:56 PM

At a short tournament, there's a lot to be said for chemistry if you can find it. If Team Canada were willing to go with a Spezza-Heatley line, then Spezza is the choice I think. Otherwise, I wouldn't take Spezza right now if I'm Gretzky. Crosby is obviously the political choice, and may well get the call on account of his speed and the 'gaining experience' argument. Ironically, Staal may be the most impressive individual player of the three right now, but might be overshadowed in the whole selection process due to the Sens sublime start and the incessant Crosby-mania. If I'm picking the team, I put Spezza with Heatley and let them go at it... if I'm a betting man, I put my money on Crosby making it.

Don Draper

11-27-2005, 01:58 PM

If Crosby makes the team and the stats stay in roughly the same proportions then do now, then Gretz should be fired. I hate to say it but you can't hand Olympic team jobs to people that arn't the best. Spezza or Staal would both help Canada alot more then Crosby would. Crosby being on the team as a starter (I wouldn't argue with him sitting in the press box for "experiance" would just be total bias. Gretz should be fired if Crosby makes the starting lineup. Simple.

I disagree completely. If anything, Crosby is the one player of the 3 that can be moved to the wing which will be very important in making this team. As much as I love Spezza, and as good as Staal has been, they arent making this lineup as a center which might be sad, but who do you kick off? Crosby's points may be lower, but hes been on fire in the past month and does it all. He would be the who I choose of the 3, based on need and adaptability.

boredmale

11-27-2005, 01:58 PM

Personally i would go for the player that's best defensively(because this team will have tons of firepower already, people with good 2 ways games will be needed), which i would consider Staal. But they arguement that Spezza and Heatley have good chemistry makes alot of sense.

joe_shannon_1983*

11-27-2005, 01:58 PM

Also, it would be quite probable that one of these 3 would play the 4th line right... like.. an energy/checking/grind line?

Then I think skating & strength is very important. I don't think it's far off to say that in the skating the department, Crosby gets the nod? Do you?

For my 4th line, I would go with something like: Smyth-Draper-Doan. That is a true energy/checking/grinding line.

Crosby, if not on a top scoring line, loses a lot of effectiveness in my opinion. And I don't think he deserves to be on a top scoring line at this point in time.

However, saying all of this, I still bet that Crosby ends up playing at the Olympics, due to the publicity and political reasons I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.

Hobofish

11-27-2005, 02:00 PM

Definitely not being a homer.. if anyone has seen my posts before they should know I'm anything but a homer.

However, I think Crosby should take it over Staal or Spezza

Why?

Because he's gonna end up there anyway, sooner OR later. Make it sooner so he can develop quicker.

Also, it would be quite probable that one of these 3 would play the 4th line right... like.. an energy/checking/grind line?

Then I think skating & strength is very important. I don't think it's far off to say that in the skating the department, Crosby gets the nod? Do you?

Both Spezza and Staal will "be there eventually" as well, but they are both better right NOW. Thus, they should get a spot over Crosby.

Oh and are you seriously trying to argue that Crosby is more of a grinder? :biglaugh: Big Joe would probobly be playing the fourth line anyways. But all the lines should be roughly equal.

Lemieux-Sakic
?-Vinny
?-Spezza
?-big joe

Richards can play wing.

Zine

11-27-2005, 02:16 PM

The more I think about it, it's probably not a bad idea taking Crosby as the 13th forward. He can play center or wing when need be and it fulfills the 'political' aspect of everything. Also gets his feet wet. Then again, saving the 13th spot for a defensive specialist would probably be smarter - seeing that Canada's already loaded offensively.

swiftwin

11-27-2005, 02:18 PM

Crosby is definitely not deserving of getting on the team. If he gets on, it will be only because of poitics and stupid **** like that.

Ill be very very very disgusted if Crosby is on the team, unless hes an injury replacement.

Jaded-Fan

11-27-2005, 02:21 PM

If your choice for the last player to make your team is between crosby, staal, or spezza . . . why would you all really care to get so fired up about this? That is one loaded team. That last slot will make little difference whichever of these three you choose.

Danny__K

11-27-2005, 02:22 PM

hard to break up the spezza/heatley tandem the way they're playing. Throw Iggy on the wing and now you've got a line :p

Psycho Papa Joe

11-27-2005, 02:23 PM

it looks like only one of these players will get chosen for team canada if any. Now, which one of these three young superstars would you take?
I will lose alot of respect for Wayne if any of these guys misses and Doan, Bertuzzi or Mario are included.

nneate

11-27-2005, 02:24 PM

Spezza.

Chemistry with Heatley does it for me, rather easily.

therealdeal

11-27-2005, 02:36 PM

Definitely not being a homer.. if anyone has seen my posts before they should know I'm anything but a homer.

However, I think Crosby should take it over Staal or Spezza

Why?

Because he's gonna end up there anyway, sooner OR later. Make it sooner so he can develop quicker.

Also, it would be quite probable that one of these 3 would play the 4th line right... like.. an energy/checking/grind line?

Then I think skating & strength is very important. I don't think it's far off to say that in the skating the department, Crosby gets the nod? Do you?

I do like Crosby, but you're reasoning is kinda ******, you say Crosbys gonna be there eventually, but so is Staal and Spezza, they'll be on the team in 2010 as well.

Management team should pick the best player at the time.

Crosbyfan

11-27-2005, 02:58 PM

If you are picking the best team now all three make it.

If you are picking who will be the best come February it's a little tougher. Sid could be on the top two lines easily by then or some of the underachieving "who seemed like locks" prior to the season starting might have turned their games around.

Sid seems the most adaptable of the three and best for the big ice and pressure situation but I think we have to wait and see if these guys are still dominating consistently up until the deadline. If they still are they all deserve to go.

morethanconquerers

11-27-2005, 03:20 PM

Mario may give up his spot for Crosby. He has talked about it in the Pittsburgh papers. In any event, choices like this one are pretty nice to have, aren't they?

i really don't see how mario can be allowed to 'choose' who replaces him in the team. he can decide for himself whether or not he wants to play, but shouldn't appoint anyone to take his place should he decide not to.

i'd love to see spezza there... his chemistry with heatley is enough of an argument in itself. although i'm about 98% sure that crosby will be there instead.

Crosbyfan

11-27-2005, 03:44 PM

i really don't see how mario can be allowed to 'choose' who replaces him in the team. he can decide for himself whether or not he wants to play, but shouldn't appoint anyone to take his place should he decide not to.

i'd love to see spezza there... his chemistry with heatley is enough of an argument in itself. although i'm about 98% sure that crosby will be there instead.

Mario has publicly stated that Crosby should be given a serious look (which I think most would agree with) and that it would be a great experience for him (which I think most would see as not relevant to picking the best possible team for the 2006 Olympics).

But none of these guys, whether it's Crosby, Spezza or Staal, should be left off the roster in favour of picking the best possible team of 2004.

espo

11-27-2005, 03:49 PM

espo

11-27-2005, 03:50 PM

E = CH²

11-27-2005, 03:53 PM

The Legend

11-27-2005, 04:03 PM

If Crosby makes the team and the stats stay in roughly the same proportions then do now, then Gretz should be fired. I hate to say it but you can't hand Olympic team jobs to people that arn't the best. Spezza or Staal would both help Canada alot more then Crosby would. Crosby being on the team as a starter (I wouldn't argue with him sitting in the press box for "experiance" would just be total bias. Gretz should be fired if Crosby makes the starting lineup. Simple.

First of all, I think whatever decision Gretzky makes we should trust. Why? Well he has won the last two tournaments for us that we've been in. So don't give me that crock of bs. He knows a lot more than you do. It shouldn't be all about points.

formsoldier*

11-27-2005, 04:05 PM

I do like Crosby, but you're reasoning is kinda ******, you say Crosbys gonna be there eventually, but so is Staal and Spezza, they'll be on the team in 2010 as well.

Management team should pick the best player at the time.

Good point, although you could've expressed yourself differently.

To clarify; they won't be regarded and referred to as the same way as Crosby is.

In case you've missed it, Crosby is supposed to be Canada's new wünderkid. Spezza and Staal, although superb, elite players, just don't have the same status and probably won't be.

Because this far, Crosby is living up to the hype. He's a rookie .. imagine if an 18-year old could be there to win the Olympics in Torino (OT: I might be going there btw) ...

That would be cool.

senskickass12

11-27-2005, 04:07 PM

If it came down to one of the three I'd have to pick Spezza for reasons already mentioned. He's tied for the league lead in points and has great chemistry with Heatley.

formsoldier*

11-27-2005, 04:08 PM

If it came down to one of the three I'd have to pick Spezza for reasons already mentioned. He's tied for the league lead in points and has great chemistry with Heatley.

Now that is a reason I think is eligible (chemistry with Heatley).

However, it's not all definite. Wasn't LeCavalier, St. Louis and Richards suppose to have superb chemistry?

It doesn't necessarily mean that Heatley and Spezza would play together.

Oilerfan120582

11-27-2005, 04:12 PM

Hockeyfan_86

11-27-2005, 04:15 PM

My opinion...We're arguing about all these guys who should make it, when in the end the only difference is how much we win by!

We kick ***

:handclap:

Take Avery as our 13th fwd :D

Bandwagoner

11-27-2005, 04:21 PM

I don't really care who makes it out of the three, but I would really like to see the line of Iginla Sakic Gagne again... For all this talk about chemistry, people are forgetting how good these three played together in Sault Lake.

So if you want Chemistry go with Spezza and Heatley, but maybe put a guy like St. Louis, or Richards, or some Alfredssonesque player on the wing with them, and keep Iggy Sakic Gagne in tact. Then you would have a bit of chemistry.

E = CH²

11-27-2005, 04:23 PM

Ice

11-27-2005, 04:31 PM

It is hard to believe that any of these 3 will not make it and I think room should be made for all of them. But if I had to choose one to leave off I would reluctantly pick Spezza.

PecaFan

11-27-2005, 04:41 PM

Definitely Spezza. As for the "who would you leave out" argument, I don't buy it at all. Spezza is playing better than pretty much any of the other so called "better" established centres on that team.

I don't believe in giving spots based on past history. What matters is how they're playing *now*.

futurcorerock

11-27-2005, 04:42 PM

Staal, Spezza >>>> Crosby.

Crosbyfan

11-27-2005, 04:52 PM

My opinion...We're arguing about all these guys who should make it, when in the end the only difference is how much we win by!

We kick ***

:handclap:

Take Avery as our 13th fwd :D

It is going to come down to 1 game! We need every edge possible. Hopefully we won't be down 1 goal going into the third knowing we left the these gamebreakers at home in hopes that some of the "locks" worked the kinks out of their game in January.

Jack Canuck

11-27-2005, 04:59 PM

At this point I would probably be looking at Spezza, then Staal, then Crosby. Although is Sid can be brought along as an extra it would be a great learning experience for him and he certainly wouldn't hurt the team.

It is inevitable that Sid will oneday be on the team and probably lead the team, so if we can get him that little extra experience now it may pay off in the years to come.

Kesler Kills Kommies

11-27-2005, 05:06 PM

Crosby by a mile
but even they are all center, i think you can move one or two to LW or RW

E = CH²

11-27-2005, 05:09 PM

It is going to come down to 1 game! We need every edge possible. Hopefully we won't be down 1 goal going into the third knowing we left the these gamebreakers at home in hopes that some of the "locks" worked the kinks out of their game in January.

Yup, like what happened last time. We only had Gagne, Thornton and Nash. Heatley was in a funk and the grinders we brought along couldn't do it.

The Hamburglar

11-27-2005, 05:09 PM

That was 4 years ago.

The new chemistry line is Gagne-Thornton-Nash ! :p:

Even if Nash had chemistry with Thornton in the Worlds, he doesn't deserve to be on this team. He's played something like what, two games this year? In 2002, Gretzky's approach was to take the best player available and it worked. There were no Zamuner's on that team. Honestly, Gretz should go with that strategy again....it got Gold last time.

Sting

11-27-2005, 05:15 PM

The "take Crosby because he'll be on the team eventually and needs the experience" makes no sense. Spezza and Staal are in the same situation. They're also bigger and better players at this point in their careers. They need the experience just as much, because those two will be a huge part of Canada down the road too.

David A. Rainer

11-27-2005, 05:34 PM

Grow up people. Stop calling each other retarded, generally or specifically.

Canuck21t

11-27-2005, 05:47 PM

Why not have all 3 ?

Gagne - Thornton - Nash
Heatley - Spezza - Iginla
Richards - Lecavalier - St-Louis
Crosby - Staal - Sakic
Smyth

EDIT :

To answer the inevitable "But where's the grind line?" comment..

We don't need one. When you have that kind of 2-way talent, you don't make yourself weaker for no reason.

Guys like Gagne, Iginla, Richards, Sakic and Smyth can all play the PK. And with the amount of talent there'd be out there it's the other team that'd have to worry about special units.

Are guys like Morrow, Draper, Doan so much better defensively than the guys I named above that it'd be worth having them on the team ?
I totally agree. I just don't understand why Canada always has to have a grind line. With the talent we have, we should dictate all the time and it's the other teams that should worry about having a grind line to counter us. Gretzky should just take the best at the moment and right now, all 3 Staal, Spezza and Crosby should be on the team. The likes of Doan, Draper, Malby, Morrow and even Burtuzzi don't deserve to be part of the team. As for Lemieux and Yzerman, their time have past and they should let the next generation take their place. The Olympic is played on a big ice surface so therefore we need all the skill and speed possible. The feet should always move, move, move. One other concern to me is the coaching staff. Can't we have better coaching than old mentality Quinn, Hitcock and Martin? If you ask me, Team Canada has been successful despite them.

Canuck21t

11-27-2005, 05:49 PM

Even if Nash had chemistry with Thornton in the Worlds, he doesn't deserve to be on this team. He's played something like what, two games this year? In 2002, Gretzky's approach was to take the best player available and it worked. There were no Zamuner's on that team. Honestly, Gretz should go with that strategy again....it got Gold last time.
If that's the case, we shouldn't see Doan, Maltby, Draper and Morrow this time around and that's what I hope for.

Mace_37

11-27-2005, 05:53 PM

I think that the choice will be determined based on the line that he'd be playing on, if a playmaker is needed I'd pick Spezza. If a sniper would be prefered, I'd choose Staal.

The Mars Volchenkov

11-27-2005, 05:53 PM

So many players are going to make it on reputation alone, which is kind of sad. You could make the arguement that Spezza and Staal have been the best Canadian centers in the league this year.

joe_shannon_1983*

11-27-2005, 05:54 PM

Why not have all 3 ?

Gagne - Thornton - Nash
Heatley - Spezza - Iginla
Richards - Lecavalier - St-Louis
Crosby - Staal - Sakic
Smyth

EDIT :

To answer the inevitable "But where's the grind line?" comment..

We don't need one. When you have that kind of 2-way talent, you don't make yourself weaker for no reason.

Guys like Gagne, Iginla, Richards, Sakic and Smyth can all play the PK. And with the amount of talent there'd be out there it's the other team that'd have to worry about special units.

Are guys like Morrow, Draper, Doan so much better defensively than the guys I named above that it'd be worth having them on the team ?

That team would not be even close to the best team that one could make.

People don't realize that the goal is to make the best team, not necessarily to simply take the best players.

Your team could be improved by adding more experience, adding more wingers, adding more grit, and adding more defensive conscience.

You can't have a team full of all of the same type of player. Taking Crosby, Spezza, and Staal when you have already got Sakic, Richards, and Lecavalier is completely pointless. You would have too many centres playing out of position. This is not to mention Thornton, who will also take a spot at centre.

I have no problem taking ONE of Crosby, Spezza, or Staal. But when you take them all you really weaken your team in my opinion, unless you are ready to take off guys like Lecavalier or Richards, which won't happen.

You don't leave off gritty, experienced, wingers like Bertuzzi or Doan to take a bunch of finesse, inexperienced, centres like Crosby, Spezza, or Staal. Especially when you have already got players who play the exact same role as Crosby, Spezza, and Staal.

In order to make the best team possible, you need to have scorers, playmakers, leadership, experience, grittiness, and everything else. You can't have a bunch of scorers and playmakers, but have no experience or grittiness, and expect to give yourself the best chance to win.

joe_shannon_1983*

11-27-2005, 06:05 PM

Here is who I would pick as of right now for Team Canada:

Lemieux - Sakic - Iginla
Gagne - Thornton - Heatley
Smyth - Lecavalier - St.Louis
Doan - Richards - Bertuzzi
Draper

Pronger - Blake
Niedermayer - Foote
Redden - Jovanovski
McCabe

Brodeur
Luongo
Theodore

This team is strong in every area.

There are really no weaknesses, such as weaknesses in grit, leadership, experience, or versatility.

And perceived strengths, such as strengths in skill and talent, are preserved as there is still an abundance of skill and talent present on this team.

Clutch Mediocrity

11-27-2005, 06:11 PM

Easily Spezza.

Crosby has the best potential of the 3 but is also clearly the worst of the as right of now. This is a short tourney and you pick the best players possible when you're as good as Canada is both with young and more etablished talent. Let him grow in the NHL. That's a good league too, you know. Experience for the future some people say? You don't think Spezza/Staal will play huge parts for Canada in the next few yearsa aswell? Basically it should be Spezza vs. Staal. That's damn close no matter how you look at it (IMO Spezza is the better player). But one of the two can be placed with lock winger Dany Heatley and be sure to have tons of chemistry. That should seal it.

Canuck21t

11-27-2005, 06:11 PM

You don't leave off gritty, experienced, wingers like Bertuzzi or Doan to take a bunch of finesse, inexperienced, centres like Crosby, Spezza, or Staal. Especially when you have already got players who play the exact same role as Crosby, Spezza, and Staal.

In order to make the best team possible, you need to have scorers, playmakers, leadership, experience, grittiness, and everything else. You can't have a bunch of scorers and playmakers, but have no experience or grittiness, and expect to give yourself the best chance to win.
Bertuzzi isn't gritty anymore, he is as gentle as a lamb this season. If he's on the team, it would be because of reputation. Even with Crosby, Spezza, and Staal, the experience would still be there with Sakic, Gagne, Iginla and Smythe. Maybe grittiness is what is lacking a bit at offense but I think that grit is very much overrated. Let's also not forget that we can have experience and grit from our defense.

Hobofish

11-27-2005, 06:15 PM

joe_shannon_1983*

11-27-2005, 06:21 PM

Bertuzzi isn't gritty anymore, he is as gentle as a lamb this season. If he's on the team, it would be because of reputation. Even with Crosby, Spezza, and Staal, the experience would still be there with Sakic, Gagne, Iginla and Smythe. Maybe grittiness is what is lacking a bit at offense but I think that grit is very much overrated. Let's also not forget that we can have experience and grit from our defense.

That is true, there still would be a lot of experience with Sakic, Gagne, Iginla, and Smyth. However, I believe that you can never have too much experience. So while they would have some experience up front, it would obviously help to have as much as possible, assuming the guys that you take for experience can play at a high level (which guys like Lemieux, St.Louis, and Doan can).

I somewhat disagree with you saying that grittiness can be over-rated. Grittiness does not guarantee a championship, but grittiness is very important nonetheless. Have you ever heard of the phrase, "too many chiefs, and not enough indians"? You can't simply have a bunch of offensive chiefs on your team. You need to have some indians on your team willing to sacrifice their bodies in order to gain puck possession. What good is it to have a bunch of offensive wizards if there is nobody on their line willing to go into the corners or fight along the boards in order to get them the puck? What good is it to have a bunch of offensive wizards if your team can't retrieve the puck after losing it?

Don Draper

11-27-2005, 06:24 PM

Kesler Kills Kommies

11-27-2005, 06:27 PM

joe_shannon_1983*

11-27-2005, 06:31 PM

Heatley should be no1 RW while Iginla is only worth second line RW

Yeah, I understand. I wasn't really putting them in order of lines 1-4. All lines will each get plenty of ice-time. There really isn't any difference between lines 1-4.

Line #1 might be line #4 in some games, and vice versa. It will all depend on which line is having the 'hot hand' in any given game.

Kesler Kills Kommies

11-27-2005, 06:38 PM

Yeah, I understand. I wasn't really putting them in order of lines 1-4. All lines will each get plenty of ice-time. There really isn't any difference between lines 1-4.

Line #1 might be line #4 in some games, and vice versa. It will all depend on which line is having the 'hot hand' in any given game.
yeah, that make sense
:yo:
i hope Bertuzzi can really catch on fire during those games and get his confident back, vancouver would really want him back as a power forward

JD1

11-27-2005, 07:15 PM

Cup 2010 Sens Rule

11-27-2005, 07:24 PM

I disagree completely. If anything, Crosby is the one player of the 3 that can be moved to the wing which will be very important in making this team. As much as I love Spezza, and as good as Staal has been, they arent making this lineup as a center which might be sad, but who do you kick off? Crosby's points may be lower, but hes been on fire in the past month and does it all. He would be the who I choose of the 3, based on need and adaptability.

Good to see another Sens fan not be a homer. Crosby will be on the team. There is no doubt in my mind. I think he is just plain better than Spezza or Staal right now. And I am a huge Sens fan and think Staal is great this year. As the season goes on Crosby will be get better and better. It would be nice to see Spezza with Heatley and I think that we actually will see both Crosby and Spezza on the team. But Crosby will be the first choice of the 2.

SPORTSMANIAC

11-27-2005, 07:52 PM

As a hockey fan I have no problem with any of these three on the Team. I am reading alot of posters say if Crosby gets on it is politics. What if he ends up on the team and is a top three in points on Canada will it be because he was on the team because politics and he got lucky and caught on fire during the games or he has the skills to play on the best international team and against the World's best at the age of 18? Back to orginal question hopefully as a USA fan hopefully it will be Yzerman and Mario over Staal, Spezza, and Crosby. :yo:

therealdeal

11-27-2005, 08:07 PM

Good point, although you could've expressed yourself differently.

To clarify; they won't be regarded and referred to as the same way as Crosby is.

In case you've missed it, Crosby is supposed to be Canada's new wünderkid. Spezza and Staal, although superb, elite players, just don't have the same status and probably won't be.

Because this far, Crosby is living up to the hype. He's a rookie .. imagine if an 18-year old could be there to win the Olympics in Torino (OT: I might be going there btw) ...

That would be cool.

Forgot that swears get bleeped out, I wasn't trying to diss you, its just that swears are part of my daily dialouge, no offense was meant.

You've better clarified your argument in this post, and I definetly agree more-so with it, however you would probably agree they'll all be key components in 2010 anyways, so its pretty much win-win with any guy you go with.

Turd Ferguson

11-27-2005, 10:56 PM

Crosby has the best potential of the 3 but is also clearly the worst of the as right of now.
i strongly disagree. I would take crosby over both of them right now. If he was on a team that actually tried to win, he would be up with spezza and staal atop the scoring race.

Crosby makes the players around him so much better. Spezza and Stall are both great players, but do not have the same effect imho.

Oilerfan120582

11-30-2005, 01:30 PM

I believe that after last night's game, Jason Spezza has now taken over the NHL scoring lead with 41 points. I like Crosby and Staal, but Spezza is amazing.

Viflux

11-30-2005, 03:06 PM

Comparing Eric Staal, Jason Spezza, and Sidney Crosby at this point is rather useless.

Staal plays for a talent-deprived, overachieving team. Spezza plays for a talent-rich, dominant team. Crosby plays for a talent-rich, underachieving team.

One could easily suggest that Crosby would have better numbers than Spezza if their current situations were reversed.

Personally, I think all three should be on the team based on performances this season. I know guys like Sakic and Richards are quite likely locks for the team, even though they haven't performed up to expectations. In my opinion, that's not a good thing.

I also think the idea of taking a 'defensive specialist' or 'defensive line' is absurd. Other countries are struggling to fill in lineups with players that can compete on that level. It pains me to see Kris Draper on the team. Do you think the Russian team is trying to find defensive specialists to play against other teams top lines?

I figure the best line in the entire tournament will come from one of Sweden or Russia. I have no problems playing our top line (Let's say Thornton, Gagne, and Iginla) against any trio anyone else can put out there.

Our strength lies in our depth. By rolling four offensively gifted, talented, and speedy lines, no team will be able to consistently ice defensive speicalists. It will be impossible to shutdown an entire 12-man forward unit.

Big Phil

12-01-2005, 03:56 PM

All 3 guys are playing well and we have a few so called locks for the team that are not playing well at all. The Thornton and St Louis spots should be in jeopardy IMO. Thornton was invisible last night, Spezza was dominant.

4 centers - Sakic, Lecavalier, Richards and Spezza, put Crosby on the wing or in the press box and buy St. Louis and Thornton some new TVs where they can be spectators as they have been thus far into this season.

Thornton a spectator? You do mean Joe Thornton dont you? He's been playing just fine this year. No matter what role you put Joe into he'll thrive. he was a checking centre at the "04 World Cup and he was more dangerous offensively than anyone. St. Louis is just now starting to pick up his game and to me he'll be more valuable than Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi has done nothing since '03. He's a shadow of his former self right now.

Anyways, Staal Spezza and Crosby are all tough and we've all been thinking of them a lot this year, but to me this is a good problem. There wont be a wrong answer no matter who you pick. Although one of them is going to be the "Thornton" of '02. One of them no matter what is going to be left at home and it could be Spezza who is leading the league in scoring. Imagine that. Imangine having a team so good you cant even find room for the leading scorer! So to me this is exiciting.

Sakic Lecavalier Richards and Thornton are locks. Iginla, Heatley, Gagne are locks. That's seven for sure. St. Louis, Lemieux, Nash, Smyth, and a chekcer of either Draper or Peca will be semi-locks. That's twelve spots. That leaves one open and I'm just gald I dont have to make that decision. That is unless Gretzky fall on his "heart" and picks Yzerman for the heck of it. Imagine the pandemoniun there. Spezza the leading scorer in the NHL stays home while a 40 year old 3 goal scorer goes to Italy. Yikes!

joe_shannon_1983*

12-01-2005, 04:48 PM

Thornton a spectator? You do mean Joe Thornton dont you? He's been playing just fine this year. No matter what role you put Joe into he'll thrive. he was a checking centre at the "04 World Cup and he was more dangerous offensively than anyone. St. Louis is just now starting to pick up his game and to me he'll be more valuable than Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi has done nothing since '03. He's a shadow of his former self right now.

Anyways, Staal Spezza and Crosby are all tough and we've all been thinking of them a lot this year, but to me this is a good problem. There wont be a wrong answer no matter who you pick. Although one of them is going to be the "Thornton" of '02. One of them no matter what is going to be left at home and it could be Spezza who is leading the league in scoring. Imagine that. Imangine having a team so good you cant even find room for the leading scorer! So to me this is exiciting.

Sakic Lecavalier Richards and Thornton are locks. Iginla, Heatley, Gagne are locks. That's seven for sure. St. Louis, Lemieux, Nash, Smyth, and a chekcer of either Draper or Peca will be semi-locks. That's twelve spots. That leaves one open and I'm just gald I dont have to make that decision. That is unless Gretzky fall on his "heart" and picks Yzerman for the heck of it. Imagine the pandemoniun there. Spezza the leading scorer in the NHL stays home while a 40 year old 3 goal scorer goes to Italy. Yikes!

I agree with most everything you say, with one exception. And that exception is: Nash.

What has he done this season, or done in the past, to deserve "semi-lock" status?

I had this same argument a little while ago, and it ended in a stalemate, so I don't expect this discussion to be any different.

However, I feel obliged to once again throw my two cents into the Nash topic.

The guy has only ever scored 57 points in his career-best season. True he had 41 goals one time, but the value of a player is not how many goals they score individually, but how many goals they help their team score as a whole. Now while being a good goal scorer certainly helps your team score goals as a whole, so does helping your team-mates score. And Nash fails miserably at that. Why not take a guy who is competent as a goal scorer, but also a lot better playmaker? A 25-50-70 guy or a 30-45-75 guy is going to help your team a lot more than a 40-15-55 guy ever will. Especially if they also are able to contribute in other ways besides offense, which Nash can't but some 25-50-70 or a 30-45-75 guys can.

Nash's best season is 57 points. Spezza is almost already past that in merely 1/4 of a season. It would be a shame if Nash gets on the team, and Spezza doesn't.

You say Bertuzzi has done "nothing" since the 2003 season? That may be true, when you compare what was expected out of him with what he has actually done. But even if Bertuzzi has done "nothing", "nothing" in Todd Bertuzzi standards still surpasses Nash's best.

Nash is a guy with no track record at being a all-around offensive threat. He is a guy with no track record at being an all-around player. He is a guy with no track record at being a winner or a leader.

Canada has an infinite amount of guys who have track records in all of those things, or at least guys who have track records in at least some of those things.

And this does not even consider the fact that Nash has been injured this season. For one, you don't know how healthy he will be during the Olympics, thus you don't know how he will contribute. For two, you slap in the face a bunch of guys who have had good seasons by leaving them off in favour of someone who has 0 points in 3 games played this season and with no track record (less than 100 career points).

Nash has no place on the 2006 Olympic Team in my opinion. Not when you consider the superior players that you would leaving off by taking a one-dimensional injured player like Nash.

Perhaps Nash will be ready and able by the time the 2010 Olympics roll around. He is young enough that he will get chances in the future to prove that he has what it takes to deserve a spot on the Canadian Olympic Team.

NyQuil

12-01-2005, 05:31 PM

Crosby makes the players around him so much better. Spezza and Stall are both great players, but do not have the same effect imho.

I may agree that Crosby would play the wing better than Staal and certainly Spezza, and may be a better selection, but making those around him better is PRECISELY what Spezza does.

How else do you get 117 points in the AHL playing with guys like Brandon Bochenski?

Viflux

12-01-2005, 06:00 PM

How else do you get 117 points in the AHL playing with guys like Brandon Bochenski?

By playing in a league where you had no business playing.

The AHL is a league for developing players and borderline NHL'ers. Spezza put up great numbers in limited icetime in 03-04, and had proved that he could be a top NHL player. It was the coaching staff that lacked faith in him and held him up.

Look at his stats compared to his icetime in 03-04. He would have had his "breakout" season then had he been getting 22 minutes a game.

For the record, he had 55 points in 03-04, despite 14 and a half minutes.

Spezza had more points per minute of icetime in 03-04 than Ilya Kovalchuk.

That's why he dominated the AHL.

NyQuil

12-01-2005, 06:58 PM

By playing in a league where you had no business playing.

The AHL is a league for developing players and borderline NHL'ers. Spezza put up great numbers in limited icetime in 03-04, and had proved that he could be a top NHL player. It was the coaching staff that lacked faith in him and held him up.

Look at his stats compared to his icetime in 03-04. He would have had his "breakout" season then had he been getting 22 minutes a game.

For the record, he had 55 points in 03-04, despite 14 and a half minutes.

Spezza had more points per minute of icetime in 03-04 than Ilya Kovalchuk.

That's why he dominated the AHL.

Sure, but you haven't really refuted my point that he makes those around him better.

You're actually in violent agreement with me. :dunno:

Captain_Cunney

12-01-2005, 06:59 PM

Crosby by a mile
but even they are all center, i think you can move one or two to LW or RW
What exactly do you base this comment on? While I'm not going to argue that he will be the best of the 3 in 5 years, what exactly makes him better right now? To me, he is currently 3rd on the list of Spezza, Staal, Crosby. That being said, I'm hoping all 3 make the team, they all deserve it.

JD1

12-03-2005, 10:50 AM

Thornton a spectator? You do mean Joe Thornton dont you? He's been playing just fine this year. No matter what role you put Joe into he'll thrive.

I most certainly did mean Joe Thornton. And his being traded this week would pretty much give you a good understanding of what those who watch him most think of him. Joe has world class talent but lacks in many areas.

fast forward to the 2010 Olympics. Thornton will be 30-31. Crosby will play centre. Guaranteed. Assuming Spezza and Staal are better players in their mid 20s than they are now, it is hard to imagine them not being on that team as centers. It is also hard for me to imagine them not being better than Thornton at that time.

Thornton's play has been anything but inspirational. Spezza is leading the NHL in scoring and we are getting to the 1/3 pole. He definitely plays with some talent but he contributes to the numbers those guys put up. I have a hard time with Joe in and Spezza out. Joe in and Staal out is easier to see but I still not sure I like that either.

joe_shannon_1983*

12-03-2005, 01:14 PM

I most certainly did mean Joe Thornton. And his being traded this week would pretty much give you a good understanding of what those who watch him most think of him. Joe has world class talent but lacks in many areas.

fast forward to the 2010 Olympics. Thornton will be 30-31. Crosby will play centre. Guaranteed. Assuming Spezza and Staal are better players in their mid 20s than they are now, it is hard to imagine them not being on that team as centers. It is also hard for me to imagine them not being better than Thornton at that time.

Thornton's play has been anything but inspirational. Spezza is leading the NHL in scoring and we are getting to the 1/3 pole. He definitely plays with some talent but he contributes to the numbers those guys put up. I have a hard time with Joe in and Spezza out. Joe in and Staal out is easier to see but I still not sure I like that either.

Uh yeah.

But the problem is, we are trying to build a team to win for 2006, not 2010.

So even if all of those players are better by 2010 it is irrelevant when deciding the 2006 Olympic Team.

Picking players for the 2006 Olympic Team based on how good they might be by 2010 is nonsense. A deep country like Canada should be bringing their absolute best players at every tournament, not the players who have the best potential.

And right now, Thornton is better than Crosby, Spezza, or Staal.

JD1

12-03-2005, 02:45 PM

And right now, Thornton is better than Crosby, Spezza, or Staal.

did you see that Boston Ottawa game last week? I have seen the two of them on the ice together in a few games this year and he certainly did not outshine Spezza in those games. Very much the other way around actually. I've seen a few Boston Habs games this year as well. Joe didn't impress in those.

Maybe he looks good in an SJ jersey but I don't know, I didn't see that game.

Joe Thornton has a big name. His play this year is uninspired. Spezza and Crosby look very good. My reference to 2010 was that is Joe isn't likely to be there then and given the play of a few youngsters, Canada doesn't seem to need him now.

And I never would have made this argument 2 months ago. I would have penciled Joe in as a lock and the idea of any of the 3 youngsters on that team would have been laughable. But Joe hasn't earned his spot and the kids have been mighty impressive.