WJC: Canada's #1 goaltender [Archive]

MarkovForNorris

11-26-2005, 06:11 PM

A bit off topic but Jeff Glass still gets absolutley no props from anyone...

Why should he get some talk in this particular thread anyway? He can't play in the U-20 tournament anymore. With that being said, I think you are right. The Senators have a very solid young goalthender on their hands. Definetely some starting goalie potential in Glass.

On to the main subject, I really hope Carey Price's stellar month of November will help him climb back the rankings on Team Canada scouts list. I believe he has the mentality of a goalthender that could bring Canada a long way. He has shown the ability to step up in important games in the past too (i.e. the semi-final game vs. Czech Republic at the U-18). Ellis and Dubnyk should also get some serious consideration. I'd say Ellis and Price could be Canada's goalies this year.

VanW27

11-26-2005, 06:13 PM

Great to see Pogge get some recognition but i dont think he will get it he's playing very well but he's also on a very good team and this years team canada is gonna need a guy who can steal a game or two unlike last year where they just needed someone who could be consistent.

Shane

11-26-2005, 06:14 PM

I've got my fingers crossed for Ellis.

Kowalchuk

11-26-2005, 06:16 PM

Ellis should most definitely get the job, but since Sutter is making the team he will likely take 2 WHL goalies, my guess is Poggemon will start and Price will back him up

Malakhov

11-26-2005, 06:23 PM

Price is on fire, he needed time to adjust back to junior play after his pro camp. If he keeps it up he gets the starting job.

gars59

11-26-2005, 06:25 PM

Ellis should most definitely get the job, but since Sutter is making the team he will likely take 2 WHL goalies, my guess is Poggemon will start and Price will back him up

my guess is carey price Devan Dubnyk will start and will back him up

and Poggemon will watch the game on tv ;)

Kowalchuk

11-26-2005, 06:31 PM

my guess is carey price Devan Dubnyk will start and will back him up

and Poggemon will watch the game on tv ;)
nah Poggemon will watch Pokemon instead

Hobofish

11-26-2005, 06:37 PM

Why should he get some talk in this particular thread anyway? He can't play in the U-20 tournament anymore. With that being said, I think you are right. The Senators have a very solid young goalthender on their hands. Definetely some starting goalie potential in Glass.

On to the main subject, I really hope Carey Price's stellar month of November will help him climb back the rankings on Team Canada scouts list. I believe he has the mentality of a goalthender that could bring Canada a long way. He has shown the ability to step up in important games in the past too (i.e. the semi-final game vs. Czech Republic at the U-18). Ellis and Dubnyk should also get some serious consideration. I'd say Ellis and Price could be Canada's goalies this year.

Hence, off topic. ;)

VanW27

11-26-2005, 06:48 PM

One guy that is being scouted for the WJC team is Medicine Hat Tiger goalie Matt Keetley. In 24 games this season he has only lost 4...and they were all shoot out losses to boot. His GAA is awesome: 1.83. And his team is first in the WHL. I am not saying he will make the WJC team this year but he is getting scouted for it....

Not to be picky but just for a sense of correctness Keetley has lost 4 games in regulation this year and 4 games in a shootout. Not 4 losses all in shootouts. Hence he is:
16-4-4 with a GAA of 1.83 and a SV% of .924 very impressive

Since im throwing some stats around Pogge is:
18-5-0 with a GAA of 1.59 and a SV% if .925 also very impressive

Easily the best two from the WHL statistically but as we know theres more to who gets the number 1 spot than stats.

Kowalchuk

11-26-2005, 07:32 PM

I don't think Poggemon or Keetley or Dubnyk are good enough to be able to win games.

Poggemon faces 21.5 shots a game with very impressive numbers, his very impressive numbers relate heavily into the fact that he doesn't face very many shots. Canada will likely face alot of shots in this tourney and will need a goaltender that is used to facing a ton of shots

Keetley faces 24.5 shots a game with very impressive numbers. Still, not vey many, see Poggemon for explanation

Dubnyk faces 27.5 shots a game with very mediocore numbers. I personally think that Dubny does not have the talent to lead Canada to a gold medal.

Price faces 30.55 shots a game with OK numbers but he has been playing superb as of late. He faces a little less than what some of the stronger teams in the WJC with get against Canada. He wouldn't be a bad selecton for Canadas starter

Ellis faces 31.65 shots per game and has been argubley the best goaltender in the CHL last year and this year. He is used to facing a ton of rubber and to me would be the perfect fit(but not likely to Sutter).

Honus Joglund

11-26-2005, 11:12 PM

Price is brutal, Im going to go out on a limb and Say Justin Pogge of the Calgary Hitmen.

Price isn't brutal, he's one of the best in the country. He had a slow start on a bad team, but is starting to pick it up and play alot better.

I fully expect him to be there, in fact I hope he's there.

Puckz

11-26-2005, 11:12 PM

Would love to see Pogge on the team. Great guy, classy character. Unfortunately I'm not sure he'll make it due to the reputation of the other tendies vying for the spot. Dubnyk is about as overrated as they come, big goalie, first round pick... never impressed me at all. Price, poor season, picked high, good goalie but I don't think he's outplayed Pogge. Ellis is having a good season and should get consideration. Unfortunately for Keetley, his numbers are good, but he suffers quite a bit of what Pogge's going through, a lack of reputation.

If I'm making the picks, I go with Ellis and Pogge, Pogs has had some international experience but was stuck behind Dubnyk so he didn't really get to play awhole lot. And if Canada is going to rely on Dubnyk I think we could be in trouble.

Puckz

11-26-2005, 11:15 PM

Canada will likely face alot of shots in this tourney and will need a goaltender that is used to facing a ton of shots

I am curious, does anyone have numbers on how many shots Canada averages against? From what I remember Glass didn't see alot of action at all last year, granted Canada had a dominant team, but in years prior, were they actually facing 30+ shots a game? I would have guess normally in the low-to-mid 20s... Anyone?

Transported Upstater

11-26-2005, 11:20 PM

nah Poggemon will watch Pokemon instead

LOL

LaLaLaprise

11-26-2005, 11:27 PM

Not to be picky but just for a sense of correctness Keetley has lost 4 games in regulation this year and 4 games in a shootout. Not 4 losses all in shootouts. Hence he is:
16-4-4 with a GAA of 1.83 and a SV% of .924 very impressive

Since im throwing some stats around Pogge is:
18-5-0 with a GAA of 1.59 and a SV% if .925 also very impressive

Easily the best two from the WHL statistically but as we know theres more to who gets the number 1 spot than stats.

1.59 GAA and a save % of .925...facing 19 shots a game..

:dunno:

Stats dont mean much of anything.

Malakhov

11-27-2005, 12:33 AM

vanwychen, your avatar should be illegal :p:

Who is it and where can I get it full size?

Kane

11-27-2005, 12:27 PM

Kowalchuk

11-27-2005, 12:34 PM

I am curious, does anyone have numbers on how many shots Canada averages against? From what I remember Glass didn't see alot of action at all last year, granted Canada had a dominant team, but in years prior, were they actually facing 30+ shots a game? I would have guess normally in the low-to-mid 20s... Anyone?
This year it will be different. Canada has one returning player this year (and he didn't he even play that much in the tourney last year) , Cam Barker. Against the weaker teams, they might not face to to many shots but against teams like the U.S and Russia they will face a ton of quality shots. Canada is not the favourite this year. Usually they are.

VanW27

11-27-2005, 01:49 PM

vanwychen, your avatar should be illegal :p:

Who is it and where can I get it full size?

It's Charisma Carpenter (formerly of Buffy Vampire Slayer) i believe its from Playboy.

Rahan

11-27-2005, 02:26 PM

Anyone think Alexandre Vincent should get consideration? I saw him play a few weeks ago here against Halifax and he looked great. Very good mobility and quickness plus it doesn't hurt that he's 6'6. I think he would do a great job for Canada.

Vincent is as inconsistent as they come. I wouldn't want him in front of team Canada's nets. I think he often lacks concentration and takes games off.

Towelie*

11-27-2005, 03:14 PM

There is absoulutely no way that Pogge should make this team. Even if Pogge somehow beat out one of Price or Dubnyk, I don't think there is much rational at him beating out Julien Ellis Plante, who I believe is easily the superior goalie.

Pogge has played for two WHL teams thus far, first the Prince George Cougars, and secondly, the Calgary Hitmen - here is his stats for both.

Prince George Cougars:
2003-2004 Cougars: GP-44- Save Percentage: .900%-GAA-2.83
2004-2005 Cougars: GP-24- Save Percentage: .891%-GAA-2.80
Calgary Hitmen:
2004-2005 Hitmen: GP-29- Save Percentage: 917%-GAA-2.29
2005-2006 Hitmen: GP-19- Save Percentage: 926%- GAA-1.55

Clearly Pogge is playing better on the Hitmen. Even when you split the 2004-2005 season in half, you can see that Pogges numbers get far better. It would be silly to suggest that this is "development", unless Pogge "developed" over night. This is most likely because the Hitmen are a better team, with a great defence. I think that if you analyze the obove stats it becomes evident that Pogges stats are inflated by the Hitmens dominace. Pogge stats have never being great, except this year. The Hitmen are 15-4 giving up an average of 19.7 shots, barely anything!

Pogges Save percentage is went up by 0.027%, a large margin - from 891%-917% - this is direct evidence of Pogges stats being inflated. It would be comical to suggest that Pogges "development" was the reason. I don't know how anyone could make an argument that Pogge deserves to be there more then Julien Ellis.

Pogge is the product of a great team - he is not a great goalie. His stats clearly show that on a average, or sub par team, he puts up mediocore numbers.

Towelie*

11-27-2005, 03:16 PM

Vincent is as inconsistent as they come. I wouldn't want him in front of team Canada's nets. I think he often lacks concentration and takes games off.

Ya, I think Vincent has a decent shot next year, however I agree he needs to play more this year and prove himself. I personally really liked him when I saw him play here in Vancouver, real big guy with quick reflexes.

Puckz

11-27-2005, 03:24 PM

Towelie*

11-27-2005, 03:31 PM

To say Pogge didn't develop I think is unrealistic. This guy busted his *** over the summer, conditioning far better come this year. Trained with Belfour throughout the summer, and did well in Leafs camp. While playing for Calgary I'm sure helped him out, but to say he didn't develop at all? Is untrue.

You obviously didn't understand my post. Pogge I am certain has developed, everyone does. However the stats you a major enhancement in both GAA and SV%, coming within the same year when he was traded. You would have to argue that Pogge literally "developed" over night when he was traded for those numbers to make sense.

Duff88

11-27-2005, 04:11 PM

Vincent is as inconsistent as they come. I wouldn't want him in front of team Canada's nets. I think he often lacks concentration and takes games off.

Definitely; unless he stops allowing a few weak goals every games or taking games off, I would take a lot of other goalies in front of him.

KStewart113

11-27-2005, 04:53 PM

I think Ellis might get the #1 job

Cerebral

11-27-2005, 05:39 PM

Anyone criticizing Dubnyk's play needs to look at the team in front of him, the number of quality shots he faces a game and the ridiculous number of powerplays he's forced to defend against. Dubnyk has single-handedly won a number of games for Kamloops this season and I definitely think he's in contention for the starting spot on Canada's WJC team.

He's certainly not a lock for the starting role but I think he's got a very solid chance.

Mtl6

11-27-2005, 05:52 PM

After a bad october month, Price is dominant altouth he's not in a good team. Pogge has some great stats but just take a look at his team performance since the beginnning of the season! Dubnyk hasn't impressed me at all and Ellis, well i'm not sure he could be no 1. My Guess:

1-Price
2-Pogge
3-Dubnyk

Crows

11-27-2005, 05:52 PM

This is like a dream come true for CAnuck fans...

One of our draft picks.. let alone a goalie is being talked about for the number 1 job in the world junuior championchips. Ohhh I can't wait!! GO ELLIS! GO!

montreal

11-27-2005, 05:55 PM

I think it's clear that both goalie spots are wide open. Several goalies have to be getting consideration. We'll see in two weeks or so when camp opens, how they do. Plus the WHL goalies will get their chance to show what they can do against Russia this week.

I don't see any of the other goalies but I have been watching Price play for Tri City and he finally has turned things around. In the month of Novemeber he's been very good with a gaa just over 2 (it was under 2 before last nights loss in ot) and his save % was over .940 for the month. His numbers are still bad but when you consider that Tri City is a brutal hockey team, the numbers aren't that bad and getting better. I saw them play Everett twice this year and both games were just painful to watch, Tri City couldn't do much of anything in either game.

Should be interesting to see who ends up getting the spots and how they do. Tough choices for Sutter.

flambers

11-27-2005, 06:06 PM

Who will be the #1 goaltender this year?

Carey Price?
Devan Dubnyk?

Neither, its going to be Justin Pogge.

Towelie*

11-27-2005, 07:31 PM

Neither, its going to be Justin Pogge.

What a solid argument.

Habsaku

11-27-2005, 07:38 PM

Here's my homer commentary coming up:

Patrick Roy always said if you want to be an NHL goalie, you gotta play for the worst team in the countrie. Carey Price is doing just that. He had a very rough time at the start of the season but right now, he's picking it up big time and looks to be back in great shape. His numbers for november are very impressive and even more so considering the team he plays for. Add that to the fact he's been stellar since coming into the WHL despite a poor team and a strong showing at the NHL camp, I think he should get the nod, or at least, I'm hoping he will.
He's also very big, agile and his puck control is top notch.

Puckz

11-27-2005, 08:44 PM

You obviously didn't understand my post. Pogge I am certain has developed, everyone does. However the stats you a major enhancement in both GAA and SV%, coming within the same year when he was traded. You would have to argue that Pogge literally "developed" over night when he was traded for those numbers to make sense.

I now understand what you are saying here. I think I misinterpreted the statement...
It would be silly to suggest that this is "development", unless Pogge "developed" over night.

However I will say this as well... A team can play better, with more confidence with a better goalie in net, so why can a goalie not play better with a better team around him? I understand the point about your stats, the mid-season trade, but there are also streaks and slumps.

Yes, Pogge only faces 20 shots a night, some might argue it's harder to stay focused on nights like this as opposed to 40+ shot nights. I can't say how much Pogge developed, or how much he didn't... but it is feasible to believe that Pogge is playing better with the Hitmen than he was with the Cougars. What I will say is that I truly believe he is a much better goalie this year, than last year... More confidence, more experience, more training, and that I do believe he will compete for the job with team Canada.

As for Ellis, I'm not arguing that, he definitely deserves a shot, probably the number one position, and if it was me it'd be between Ellis and Pogge.

USC Trojans

11-27-2005, 08:45 PM

Patrick Roy always said if you want to be an NHL goalie, you gotta play for the worst team in the countrie.
Same with Dubnyk then...Kamloops has been pretty bad and Dubnyk has bailed them out many times. His team gives away a lot of PP opportunities.

LaLaLaprise

11-27-2005, 10:11 PM

What a solid argument.

And using stats isnt really a solid argument either.

Patrick Roy had a GAA of 4.90 in junior...guess he sucked.

Saying why goalie X should be on the team because of his wicked stats is idiotic.

Hemmer Time

11-27-2005, 10:18 PM

Puckz

11-27-2005, 10:53 PM

Kamloops is an above .500 team (16W-13L) although in a tough division. There are 12 teams behind Kamloops in the WHL... Tri-Cities (Price) is only better than 3 other teams in terms of points. I guess you could say that applied more to last season (Dubnyk playing on a mediocre team), but he didn't make the team last year either...

Rand

11-27-2005, 11:13 PM

Patrick Roy always said if you want to be an NHL goalie, you gotta play for the worst team in the countrie.

Am I the only one to whom this makes no sense....you can't be an NHL goalie unless you play for the worst team in the country?
I find that whole concept to be baffling. :dunno:

Hemmer Time

11-27-2005, 11:17 PM

Am I the only one to whom this makes no sense....you can't be an NHL goalie unless you play for the worst team in the country?
I find that whole concept to be baffling. :dunno:
The worse the team, the more shots he faces the less help he gets from good defense. Leaving you hung out to dry every game, increasing your stamina and developing you as a better goaltender in the end.

Rand

11-27-2005, 11:25 PM

The worse the team, the more shots he faces the less help he gets from good defense. Leaving you hung out to dry every game, increasing your stamina and developing you as a better goaltender in the end.

Oh, I agree that getting a lot of work is a good thng.. as long as it doesn't get to the point wherein your overworked, or the entire team relies upon you to perform.

But saying you must play on the worst team in the country to be an NHL'er?
This makes... no sense to me. Why would a goalie be incapable of developing if he plays for a strong team?
Somehow I'm doubting your going to see a sudden mass deluge of every goaltending prospect demanding to be traded to a worse team. ;)

USC Trojans

11-27-2005, 11:32 PM

Kamloops is an above .500 team (16W-13L) although in a tough division.
cause Dubnyk bailed them out in those 16 games. ;)

Puckz

11-27-2005, 11:44 PM

cause Dubnyk bailed them out in those 16 games. ;)

Hahaha, make it 14 ;) Maniago has won two :D I'm not saying Dubnyk isn't a good goalie, and he does have his days... But I think he's overrated, I don't think he was first round material, his size was a big part of that... And from what I read on these boards, he had a horrible training camp this year with the Oilers. Sure he's doing okay, but if Canada is relying on him, I think they'll be in trouble.

Habsaku

11-27-2005, 11:46 PM

Exact same can be said for Dubnyk..
Lets send them both then, I dont really care(although his team is above .500 :dunno: , they arent as terrible as Tri City), I'm rooting for Price obviously because he's habs property.
Am I the only one to whom this makes no sense....you can't be an NHL goalie unless you play for the worst team in the country?
:shakehead , that wasnt the point:The worse the team, the more shots he faces the less help he gets from good defense. Leaving you hung out to dry every game, increasing your stamina and developing you as a better goaltender in the end

Patrick Roy's point was that if you play with the worst team in the league, you're gonna developp a lot faster and better then with good ones.

Hemmer Time

11-27-2005, 11:52 PM

Lets send them both then, I dont really care(although his team is above .500 :dunno: , they arent as terrible as Tri City), I'm rooting for Price obviously because he's habs property.

Yes as I am rooting for Dubnyk obviously because he's Edmonton property.

Patrick Roy's point was that if you play with the worst team in the league, you're gonna developp a lot faster and better then with good ones.

Which supports the idea of my original post.

Puckz

11-27-2005, 11:54 PM

Yes as I am rooting for Dubnyk obviously because he's Edmonton property.

I am curious, I had read posts about his Training Camp with the Oilers and how he was struggling... Was this true? Were you able to see him in action at all? Not meant offensively, just more out of curiousity.

Hemmer Time

11-28-2005, 12:00 AM

I am curious, I had read posts about his Training Camp with the Oilers and how he was struggling... Was this true? Were you able to see him in action at all? Not meant offensively, just more out of curiousity.
That's not true at all. He had a pretty solid camp and looked good in the pre-season games. Nothing spectacularly outrageous or anything. But a pretty good camp nonetheless. Perhaps Guy Flaming can give you a more sufficient response to this.

Maithz

11-28-2005, 12:02 AM

I think they should go with the 2 goaltenders with an NHL experience so Carey Price and Devan Dubnyk

Asiaoil

11-28-2005, 12:08 AM

Dubnyk's line for November:

643:26Min 332SH 308SV 24GA 7-4WL 2.24GAA 0.928SP 1SO

That is a fantastic month given the pathetic team he plays behind, the number of PP opportunities he faces every night (Kamloops is a penelty taking machine) and the number of shots he sees every game (7 of the 11 games had 30+ shots). Dubnyk was also solid at Oilers training camp and was better than Jeff Deslaurier who is 2 years older.

Price's stats for the month are even a bit better - those are your guys for the WJC

Puckz

11-28-2005, 12:16 AM

I think they should go with the 2 goaltenders with an NHL experience so Carey Price and Devan Dubnyk

I'm not sure I follow? What do you mean by NHL experience? All four players have been in an NHL training camp as far as I know...

Maithz

11-28-2005, 12:41 AM

I'm not sure I follow? What do you mean by NHL experience? All four players have been in an NHL training camp as far as I know...

sorry I didn't know that Ellis and Pogge were in the training camp :dunno:

Rabid Ranger

11-28-2005, 12:49 AM

Rob

11-28-2005, 01:02 AM

Who is the best candidate from the Q?

Puckz

11-28-2005, 01:17 AM

Who is the best candidate from the Q?

Julien Ellis from Shawnigan

cyrisweb

11-28-2005, 01:52 AM

sorry I didn't know that Ellis and Pogge were in the training camp :dunno:

Not only did he go but Ellis also played fairly well at his first NHL camp and opened some eyes.

Form and Substance

11-28-2005, 03:00 AM

In all honesty, I would take Ellis over Price and Dubnyk as starter. The Canucks have a steal and a potential gamebreaker in their hands. I hope Price gets backup duties though.

blink

11-28-2005, 03:14 AM

flambers

11-28-2005, 10:58 AM

well...i'm glad i have both Dubnyk and Price in my keeper league....hopefully they both make it...

my feeling is that it will be Price and Dubnyk...not only for the above reason (obviously i'm hoping though) but for the Sutter factor...last year he loaded the team with WHLers and I can see him doing the same thing with the goalies this time around...

I can see both of them splitting time during the round-robin but Price will be the man during the medal round...

If its the Sutter factor he will take Justin Poggie, obviously Sutter has seen this guy play allot.

Freaky Habs Fan

11-28-2005, 04:36 PM

well...i'm glad i have both Dubnyk and Price in my keeper league....hopefully they both make it...

my feeling is that it will be Price and Dubnyk...not only for the above reason (obviously i'm hoping though) but for the Sutter factor...last year he loaded the team with WHLers and I can see him doing the same thing with the goalies this time around...

I can see both of them splitting time during the round-robin but Price will be the man during the medal round...

Yeah, you're probably right. And Price will probably be there for sure because if he's not #1 this year, he will be the starter next year for sure...

If I'm right, all of Dubnyk, Ellis and Pogge can't return next year...

And Ellis isn't having an amazing season...2.93, 0.913...it's good but not great

Freaky Habs Fan

11-30-2005, 06:42 PM

Just want to know if Pogge, Dubnyk and Ellis can return next year...?

canucksfan

11-30-2005, 08:47 PM

Just want to know if Pogge, Dubnyk and Ellis can return next year...?
Neither one of them can return next year.

Peter

12-04-2005, 11:26 AM

Keetley just isn't getting the love here he deserves. He basically stold the #1 position from Nastiuk last year (and Nastiuk is a very, very good goalie) and he is dominating this year. IMO, Keeltey is the best WHL goalie right now and deserves to be at least considered for the WJC. I am not saying he should be there...but he gets an invite and perhaps a chance to start next year.

Freaky Habs Fan

12-04-2005, 01:40 PM

Kowalchuk

12-04-2005, 03:31 PM

Yeah, you're probably right. And Price will probably be there for sure because if he's not #1 this year, he will be the starter next year for sure...

If I'm right, all of Dubnyk, Ellis and Pogge can't return next year...

And Ellis isn't having an amazing season...2.93, 0.913...it's good but not greatthats quite impressive numbers for the QMJHL

Ellis is clearly the best goaltender for Team Canada but since he is from the QMJHL, he will not make the team. The to temders that will make the team will be from the WHL.

Freaky Habs Fan

12-04-2005, 03:56 PM

thats quite impressive numbers for the QMJHL

Sorry, not impressive for me. Good but not impressive.

Ellis is clearly the best goaltender for Team Canada

Clearly? I don't think so. He might be the best, but clearly? No. And IMO, we will only be able to judge who's the best G at the traning camp because Price and Dubsnyk are on a pretty bad team...

aspin

12-04-2005, 04:01 PM

I am curious, I had read posts about his Training Camp with the Oilers and how he was struggling... Was this true? Were you able to see him in action at all? Not meant offensively, just more out of curiousity.

No he did not have a bad camp. That was Deslauriers you maybe read about. Deslauriers came in less than stellar shape apparantly. although he is playing fairly well for Hamilton now that he is getting some games in.

Anksun

12-04-2005, 04:11 PM

No he did not have a bad camp. That was Deslauriers you maybe read about. Deslauriers came in less than stellar shape apparantly. although he is playing fairly well for Hamilton now that he is getting some games in.

I doubt he will keep getting too much games in Hamilton from now and on however. I dont want to be pessimistic for the Oilers fans, but Yan Danis have been returned to the AHL last week and it has been done to leave the backup job for Huet but mostly to give Danis a lot of occassions to play. He will get the nod.

edit: as for the wjc starting job. As bad as Price's october performance was, he's been absolutly stellar in november and the numbers are above anything that could be logically asked of the Tri-City goalie, if he keeps it up for december, he will get the nod.

Kowalchuk

12-04-2005, 06:06 PM

Sorry, not impressive for me. Good but not impressive.

Clearly? I don't think so. He might be the best, but clearly? No. And IMO, we will only be able to judge who's the best G at the traning camp because Price and Dubsnyk are on a pretty bad team...look at MA Fleury's QMJHL stats, there similar if not worse than Ellis, so how can the not be impressive?

Zefferelli

12-04-2005, 09:06 PM

nah Poggemon will watch Pokemon instead

:biglaugh:
And I throw my dice with.........Ellis!

Freaky Habs Fan

12-05-2005, 10:34 AM

look at MA Fleury's QMJHL stats, there similar if not worse than Ellis, so how can the not be impressive?

Don't know about you but I'm always thinking like if Ellis was with the eagles or Fleury was with the Cataracts...their stats would be different...maybe better, maybe worste, it's impossible to say. And one last time, Ellis stats are good, but not impressive for me...but they are still pretty good dude :D

Mess

12-05-2005, 01:49 PM

The two goaltending jobs are wide open for a second straight year and the starter's job will be more of a key position for this year's team than it was for the gold-medal squad that gave up 15 shots or less a game.

Shawinigan's Julien Ellis-Plante and Calgary's Justin Pogge have put up the best numbers so far this season. Devan Dubnyk of the Kamloops Blazers and Carey Price of the Tri-City Americans are trailing those two in performance, but have international experience at the under-18 level.

http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story.asp?id=145319

cyrisweb

12-05-2005, 02:12 PM

No. And IMO, we will only be able to judge who's the best G at the traning camp because Price and Dubsnyk are on a pretty bad team...

What I heard for the past two seasons is that Ellis is on one of the worse teams in the Q??

Edler Von Gud

12-05-2005, 02:23 PM

What I heard for the past two seasons is that Ellis is on one of the worse teams in the Q??

The team isn't bad record wise, but yes, the defense is horrible, Ellis backup has a GAA over 2 goals higher. His DS% is 0.45 and he faces over 32 shots a game so it's hard for any goalie to have great stats behind that crappy defense.

BobbyClarkeFan16

12-05-2005, 02:53 PM

LaLaLaprise

12-05-2005, 02:59 PM

Not to diss the QMJHL in terms of goalies, but one has to wonder whether or not they're mentally sharp enough to carry the mantle. I mean, before Jeff Glass last year, we've gone through the following goalies: Luongo, Ouellette, Leclair, and Fleury, and we've come up short. The last goalie from the Q we won with was Marc Denis. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's a bad thing that the goalies from WHL are better suited for this type of tournament. It seems like they're mentally sharper and that they don't lose their composure.

Luongo wasnt the problem. Having Simon Gagne as the 13th forward was the problem. Underrating the Q back in 99 as well.

Ouellet and Leclair werent amazing by any stretch but their teams werent as stacked as in 2005.

Fleury was one of the best players in 2003 and in 2004 wasnt sharp at all.

Bottomline, Jeff Glass has had the best team in front of him in comparison to the last 6 years.

Edler Von Gud

12-05-2005, 03:00 PM

Not to diss the QMJHL in terms of goalies, but one has to wonder whether or not they're mentally sharp enough to carry the mantle. I mean, before Jeff Glass last year, we've gone through the following goalies: Luongo, Ouellette, Leclair, and Fleury, and we've come up short. The last goalie from the Q we won with was Marc Denis. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's a bad thing that the goalies from WHL are better suited for this type of tournament. It seems like they're mentally sharper and that they don't lose their composure.

The only one who had a meltdown really was Fleury, but the other 3 were basically the reason Canada even got a medal those years. The teams infront of the goalies those years simply didn't have enough game breaking talent to win the close games in the medal rounds, and got beat by better overall teams.

BobbyClarkeFan16

12-05-2005, 04:04 PM

Luongo wasnt the problem. Having Simon Gagne as the 13th forward was the problem. Underrating the Q back in 99 as well.

Ouellet and Leclair werent amazing by any stretch but their teams werent as stacked as in 2005.

Fleury was one of the best players in 2003 and in 2004 wasnt sharp at all.

Bottomline, Jeff Glass has had the best team in front of him in comparison to the last 6 years.

Didn't Gagne lead the tournament in scoring back in '99 or tie a record for scoring?

Aaron Vickers

12-05-2005, 04:18 PM

The only one who had a meltdown really was Fleury, but the other 3 were basically the reason Canada even got a medal those years. The teams infront of the goalies those years simply didn't have enough game breaking talent to win the close games in the medal rounds, and got beat by better overall teams.

Leclaire let in a pair of weak goals against the Russians in the gold medal game as a starter. He didn't have a meltdown, but he certainly could've played better.

Freaky Habs Fan

12-05-2005, 04:19 PM

Freaky Habs Fan

12-05-2005, 04:27 PM

It's now official, the four goaltender at camp will be Price, Dubnyk, Ellis and Pogge.

LaLaLaprise

12-05-2005, 04:44 PM

Didn't Gagne lead the tournament in scoring back in '99 or tie a record for scoring?

In 1998 Canada took Tanguay as the 13th F and he led the team in scoring.
In 1999 Canada took Gagne as the 13th G and he led the team in scoring.
In 2000 Canada took Reid as the 13th F and I believe he led the team in scoring.

Makes ya think.

Jyroe Habs Fan

12-05-2005, 04:49 PM

The PRICE is Right Beaatch!!!!!!!!!!!

Carey Price

Pogge won't even be #2, the Hitmen Defence is carrying the load in Calgary.

Flames Draft Watcher

12-05-2005, 04:55 PM

In 1998 Canada took Tanguay as the 13th F and he led the team in scoring.
In 1999 Canada took Gagne as the 13th G and he led the team in scoring.
In 2000 Canada took Reid as the 13th F and I believe he led the team in scoring.

Makes ya think.

Or perhaps you're mislabelling them as 13th forwards to make your argument that they underrate the Q? That's what I think. Kind of hard for a forward to lead the team in scoring as the 13th guy isn't it? That doesn't really make any sense.

Lessy

12-05-2005, 04:58 PM

Not to diss the QMJHL in terms of goalies, but one has to wonder whether or not they're mentally sharp enough to carry the mantle. I mean, before Jeff Glass last year, we've gone through the following goalies: Luongo, Ouellette, Leclair, and Fleury, and we've come up short. The last goalie from the Q we won with was Marc Denis. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's a bad thing that the goalies from WHL are better suited for this type of tournament. It seems like they're mentally sharper and that they don't lose their composure.

Luongo turned in arguably one of the best goaltending performances in World Junior history when he started for Canada. I can remember that gold medal game Canada lost in overtime and Luongo was just brilliant all tournament long. Fleury was outstanding in 03 and Ouellet was just fine in his year as starter. The only goalies that really had meltdowns out of that list were Leclaire and Fleury in 04.

Mess

12-05-2005, 05:24 PM

December 5, 2005

The Calgary Hitman won 3-2 on Friday and Pogge stopped 37 or 38 shots on Sunday in a 5-1 win over Moose Jaw .. and earned himself a game star

That brings Pogge's season record to:

26 games .... 21 wins ... 5 losses .. 6 shutouts .... and a sparkling 1.52 GAA

Freaky Habs Fan

12-05-2005, 06:21 PM

oil slick

12-05-2005, 06:26 PM

At this point, stats doesn't mather anymore...2 goaltender will win a spot out of the training camp...

I agree - I think it really will come down to camp.

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 06:29 PM

People are blindly supporitng Pogge here. It seems that poeple are propelling Pogge but yet are some how ignoring the easiest, and most logical conclusion.

I have seen Pogge play a few times on T.V, and once live. Pogge is ok, not spectacular, but ok.

It's funny, I do understand that most peoples conclusions here at HF come from stats - that is ok - I think we have to accept that.

However people are supporting Pogge because of his stats, but yet are ignoring a fundamental contradiction in Pogges stats. Pogges stats, last season, fluctuated radically when he was traded to the Hitmen. His stats INSTANTLY were better once traded to the Hitmen, then when he was playing for Prince George. I am not denying that Pogge probably developed, however I think it is comical to believe that Pogge deveoped instantly, and also just coincidentally at the same time he was traded, explaining his stats.

Anwser this question Mess (Since you seem to be an avid Pogge follower). How can you explain Pogges INSTANT statistical inflation once traded to the Hitmen? Did he wake up over night a better goalie?

The evidence is there. I can't undestand how people can blindly turn there eyes from it.

mooseOAK

12-05-2005, 06:39 PM

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 08:45 PM

From published reports Pogge was given a lot of credit from the team for the Hitmen's improvement after he got there.

As far as not looking spectacular a lot of that may be attributed to positioning which he was probably taught at the Leafs' training camp. Belfour is one of the best at that.

Hmm, lets break things down.

2004-2005 Calgary Hitmen Goalies:
1. Scott Bowles: GP=32, 15=Wins, 12=Losses,Ties = 4 (HockeyDB)
2. Justin Pogge: GP=24, 10=Wins, 9=Losses, Ties=2 (Hockey DB)
3. Daniel Spence: GP=17, 5=Wins, 5=Losses, Ties=2 (Hoockey DB)

Scott Bowles actually had a better winning percentage with the Hitmen then Pogge did. Therefore, after the trade, the Hitmen actually regressed with Pogge initially, contrary to what you said.

In fact, Scott Bowles and Justin Pogge both put up similar statistics. Who is to say that Scott Bowles wouldn't be the one everyone is talking about had he not being traded and was the goalie for the stacked Hitmen.

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 08:46 PM

LaLaLaprise

12-05-2005, 08:56 PM

Or perhaps you're mislabelling them as 13th forwards to make your argument that they underrate the Q? That's what I think. Kind of hard for a forward to lead the team in scoring as the 13th guy isn't it? That doesn't really make any sense.

No they were 13th forwards. People on here can verify that.

Puckz

12-05-2005, 09:43 PM

Hmm, lets break things down.

2004-2005 Calgary Hitmen Goalies:
1. Scott Bowles: GP=32, 15=Wins, 12=Losses,Ties = 4 (HockeyDB)
2. Justin Pogge: GP=24, 10=Wins, 9=Losses, Ties=2 (Hockey DB)
3. Daniel Spence: GP=17, 5=Wins, 5=Losses, Ties=2 (Hoockey DB)

Scott Bowles actually had a better winning percentage with the Hitmen then Pogge did. Therefore, after the trade, the Hitmen actually regressed with Pogge initially, contrary to what you said.

In fact, Scott Bowles and Justin Pogge both put up similar statistics. Who is to say that Scott Bowles wouldn't be the one everyone is talking about had he not being traded and was the goalie for the stacked Hitmen.

Are you not simply defeating your own point by saying one can not look at stats for an accurate judge of skill? You argue it unfair to judge a goaltender's skill by statistics, yet you are now arguing that an entire team regressed in skill due to the acquisition of Pogge, based on stats (Win/Loss) alone. Seems quite contradictive.

I have had the opportunity to play with and against Bowles and Pogge thru summer camps as well as see Dubnyk play first hand. Pogge is that good, Bowlesy isn't all that bad himself. Dubnyk, good goalie, nobody's arguing with that, but I still believe that Pogge is a more skilled tendy, and his puck play will be a great advantage to the international rules.

Will I guarentee he makes the team? No, nor will I say Dubnyk won't... But I stand by my initial words that Pogge is good enough to be on this team.

Puckz

12-05-2005, 09:54 PM

Out of curiousity, how many people feel Julien Ellis' chance of getting a roster spot increased with the appointment of Goaltending Consultant Ian Clark? Clark works for the Vancouver Canucks, who own Ellis' rights, think there will be any bias?

nurminen31

12-05-2005, 09:56 PM

Julien Ellis should be the guy.

Puckz

12-05-2005, 09:57 PM

By the way, don't think this has been posted... Not for argument sake, but more out of interest, here are the stats for the 4 goaltenders in the Can-Rus Series challenge.

Dubnyk: 30:05 Minutes Played, 10 saves on 12 shots
Ellis: 50:07 Minutes Played, 28 saves on 31 shots
Pogge: 30:49 Minutes Played, 11 saves on 11 shots
Price: 29:55 Minutes Played, 7 saves on 7 shots

habitue*

12-05-2005, 10:07 PM

I guess best goalie in the Q for 2 straight years gets you no love

I think Canuck fans are still the only ones who know about this guy

and Habs fans will cry... Ellis was available in 2004 and the Canadiens have prefered to draft Ellis' assistant (Lacasse I think) instead of him... So in 2005, the Habs HAD to draft Price instead of packaging that #5 pick and get a good pick later + a proven player.

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 10:11 PM

Are you not simply defeating your own point by saying one can not look at stats for an accurate judge of skill? You argue it unfair to judge a goaltender's skill by statistics, yet you are now arguing that an entire team regressed in skill due to the acquisition of Pogge, based on stats (Win/Loss) alone. Seems quite contradictive.

I have had the opportunity to play with and against Bowles and Pogge thru summer camps as well as see Dubnyk play first hand. Pogge is that good, Bowlesy isn't all that bad himself. Dubnyk, good goalie, nobody's arguing with that, but I still believe that Pogge is a more skilled tendy, and his puck play will be a great advantage to the international rules.

Will I guarentee he makes the team? No, nor will I say Dubnyk won't... But I stand by my initial words that Pogge is good enough to be on this team.

No you missed the whole point of the post talking about stats. I didn't say stats were useless, or a bad way assesing someone. I just said that Pogge supporters were looking at Pogges good stats and concluding he was good and that they were earned. But yet they were not looking at the obvious change in his stats when he got traded from Prince George to Calgary.

Basically I was criticizing Pogge supporters for propping Pogge up with his stats, but ignoring hte obvious fact that they are inflated and would be far less good if he was not playing for Calgary, ie Prince George.

zeke

12-05-2005, 10:20 PM

People are blindly supporitng Pogge here. It seems that poeple are propelling Pogge but yet are some how ignoring the easiest, and most logical conclusion

Actually, the people supporting Pogge because of his stats are doing the OPPOSITE of supporting him "blindly"...they are supporting him for a very good, and solid, reason.

What you are doing, in fact, is much more "blind" - you are BLINDLY dismissing his stats, because for some reason you don't like him.

I mean, you revealed your bias when you stooped to calling his stats last season "similar" to Bowles'.

Pogge posted a 2.29gaa and .917sv%with the hitmen last season.

Bowles posted a 2.57gaa and .904sv%.

Sorry, but that is nowhere near "similar".

Now look at this season.....Calgary's backup goalie, Spence, is posting a 3.50gaa with an .849sv%. (and spence was pretty decent last season with calgary as a 17 year old).

That would seem to kill your argument that Pogge's stats only look good because of the team in front of him, don't you think?

It's hard to believe that a team can make one goalie look so good, and not be able to save the backup goalie from looking so bad.

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 10:31 PM

Actually, the people supporting Pogge because of his stats are doing the OPPOSITE of supporting him "blindly"...they are supporting him for a very good, and solid, reason.

What you are doing, in fact, is much more "blind" - you are BLINDLY dismissing his stats, because for some reason you don't like him.

I mean, you revealed your bias when you stooped to calling his stats last season "similar" to Bowles'.

Pogge posted a 2.29gaa and .917sv%with the hitmen last season.

Bowles posted a 2.57gaa and .904sv%.

Sorry, but that is nowhere near "similar".

Now look at this season.....Calgary's backup goalie, Spence, is posting a 3.50gaa with an .849sv%. (and spence was pretty decent last season with calgary as a 17 year old).

That would seem to kill your argument that Pogge's stats only look good because of the team in front of him, don't you think?

It's hard to believe that a team can make one goalie look so good, and not be able to save the backup goalie from looking so bad.

Can you tell me why Pogges stats got better, over night, in 2004-2005 when he was traded to the Hitmen? Where I am from players don't develop over night.

Freaky Habs Fan

12-05-2005, 11:00 PM

Can you tell me why Pogges stats got better, over night, in 2004-2005 when he was traded to the Hitmen? Where I am from players don't develop over night.

No dude, he can't :biglaugh:

richardn

12-05-2005, 11:03 PM

Can you tell me why Pogges stats got better, over night, in 2004-2005 when he was traded to the Hitmen? Where I am from players don't develop over night.

Well I can tell you 1 thing. When he was traded to Calgary he faced more shots a game and put up better numbers facing more shots per game

With Calgary Pogge faced 27.31 shots a game
With Prince George Pogge faced 21.45 shots a game

So maybe he got better suddenly because he got more action and was more involved in the games.

Steadfast

12-05-2005, 11:03 PM

This year it is 26 GP, 560 shots against Pogge = 21.54 per game.

Puckz

12-05-2005, 11:06 PM

Can you tell me why Pogges stats got better, over night, in 2004-2005 when he was traded to the Hitmen? Where I am from players don't develop over night.

Could be streaks/slumps... Could be confidence... A big part Pogge said when he joined the Hitmen was that he was the number one goalie there, and he didn't spell off games... Could be environment too. Yes, part of it may be a better team, but there are numerous other factors that can contribute to a goalie's performance, just like in any other league. If a goalie has a streak of 8 or 9 poor games, and then strings together 10 or 11 great games, doesn't mean he has developed overnight. Confidence... Streaks... Slumps... Environment... Could be multiple things.

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 11:06 PM

Well I can tell you 1 thing. When he was traded to Calgary he faced more shots a game and put up better numbers facing more shots per game

With Calgary Pogge faced 27.31 shots a game
With Prince George Pogge faced 21.45 shots a game

So maybe he got better suddenly because he got more action and was more involved in the games.

According to your logic he would then get worse in 2005-2006 because he is facing less shots....

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 11:10 PM

Could be streaks/slumps... Could be confidence... A big part Pogge said when he joined the Hitmen was that he was the number one goalie there, and he didn't spell off games... Could be environment too. Yes, part of it may be a better team, but there are numerous other factors that can contribute to a goalie's performance, just like in any other league. If a goalie has a streak of 8 or 9 poor games, and then strings together 10 or 11 great games, doesn't mean he has developed overnight. Confidence... Streaks... Slumps... Environment... Could be multiple things.

I agree, it is overly simplitic to assume one factor. The question then becomes what factor is most dominant? It is impossible to anwser, until he plays for a different team. Until now I think people should recognize this factor - among other ones.

I just don't understand why, if the choice is between Pogge and Ellis, you pick Pogge. You have agreed the question mark is there about Pogge - when no question mark of that nature surrounds Ellis.

richardn

12-05-2005, 11:11 PM

According to your logic he would then get worse in 2005-2006 because he is facing less shots....

There is a thing called confidence. Pogge had a real good camp with the Leafs and took that confidence into the start of this season I am sure working out with Belfour didn't hurt either. Goalies generally get better each year, well the good ones do at least.

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 11:14 PM

There is a thing called confidence. Pogge had a real good camp with the Leafs and took that confidence into the start of this season I am sure working out with Belfour didn't hurt either. Goalies generally get better each year, well the good ones do at least.

Not that I disagree that confidence can alter play, however all your points are irrelevant statistically as Pogges "good camp with the Leafs" occured after his stat inflation and trade from Prince George.

Puckz

12-05-2005, 11:25 PM

I just don't understand why, if the choice is between Pogge and Ellis, you pick Pogge. You have agreed the question mark is there about Pogge - when no question mark of that nature surrounds Ellis.

I don't think I have actually said that I picked Pogge over Ellis? I have argued Pogge over Dubnyk... And I did say if it was up to me, it would be Pogge and Ellis... but I never said Pogge would be the starter. Do I think he will be the starter? No probably not, but I do think he will compete for it and could win it... As mentioned before, I hope for Pogge and Ellis, but I don't feel it will happen because of the reputations behind Dubnyk and Price. The way I see it...

1. Ellis
2. Pogge
3. Price
4. Dubnyk

And I don't think I've ever said Pogge would have the starter's job... Correct me if I'm wrong however.

richardn

12-05-2005, 11:27 PM

Not that I disagree that confidence can alter play, however all your points are irrelevant statistically as Pogges "good camp with the Leafs" occured after his stat inflation and trade from Prince George.

You make it sound like he blew chunks when he played on Prince George because he went much higher in the draft then Ellis did. The fact that Pogge went to Calgary and made an imidiate impact does not mean the team is making the goalie. Fact is Pogge was there best player in the playoffs that year and stole a few games. Who knows why his stats got better all of sudden maybe it was that he faced more shots in Calgary, maybe because he was closer to home in Calgary or maybe the trade gave him a spark which is not uncommon. What ever it was he is certainly a much better goalie today because just being invited to camp speaks volume in it self. Pogge is probably the best of the 4 handling the puck, that I know. We will wait and see what happens, the job will be won in camp now and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Pogge got at least the #2 spot.

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 11:34 PM

I don't think I have actually said that I picked Pogge over Ellis? I have argued Pogge over Dubnyk... And I did say if it was up to me, it would be Pogge and Ellis... but I never said Pogge would be the starter. Do I think he will be the starter? No probably not, but I do think he will compete for it and could win it... As mentioned before, I hope for Pogge and Ellis, but I don't feel it will happen because of the reputations behind Dubnyk and Price. The way I see it...

1. Ellis
2. Pogge
3. Price
4. Dubnyk

And I don't think I've ever said Pogge would have the starter's job... Correct me if I'm wrong however.

Fair enough.

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 11:36 PM

You make it sound like he blew chunks when he played on Prince George because he went much higher in the draft then Ellis did. The fact that Pogge went to Calgary and made an imidiate impact does not mean the team is making the goalie. Fact is Pogge was there best player in the playoffs that year and stole a few games. Who knows why his stats got better all of sudden maybe it was that he faced more shots in Calgary, maybe because he was closer to home in Calgary or maybe the trade gave him a spark which is not uncommon. What ever it was he is certainly a much better goalie today because just being invited to camp speaks volume in it self. Pogge is probably the best of the 4 handling the puck, that I know. We will wait and see what happens, the job will be won in camp now and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Pogge got at least the #2 spot.

The bolded part is incorrect. The winning percentage of the Hitmen did not change significantly when Pogge was aquired. In fact, I am not even sure if it went up.

richardn

12-05-2005, 11:38 PM

I agree, it is overly simplitic to assume one factor. The question then becomes what factor is most dominant? It is impossible to anwser, until he plays for a different team. Until now I think people should recognize this factor - among other ones.

I just don't understand why, if the choice is between Pogge and Ellis, you pick Pogge. You have agreed the question mark is there about Pogge - when no question mark of that nature surrounds Ellis.

No question mark about Ellis?

How about his poor performance in the playoffs last season 0-3 with a 3.42 GA. Compare that to Pogge's playoff performance last year ;) .

richardn

12-05-2005, 11:40 PM

The bolded part is incorrect. The winning percentage of the Hitmen did not change significantly when Pogge was aquired. In fact, I am not even sure if it went up.

He made am impact on his personal stats. The team continued do good and was lead in the playoffs by Pogge's play which the same can not be said for Ellis's playoff performance last year.

Towelie*

12-05-2005, 11:45 PM

No question mark about Ellis?

How about his poor performance in the playoffs last season 0-3 with a 3.42 GA. Compare that to Pogge's playoff performance last year ;) .

I am not really debating Ellis, there are question marks on all the goalies.

Ellis played for a less then stellar team, with a terrible defence.

Flames Draft Watcher

12-05-2005, 11:51 PM

I was a Hitmen season ticket holder last year. Pogge is a good goalie. He wasn't that far off Glass last year. I like his NHL chances and would love to have him as a prospect on my team.

Anybody who hasn't seen him play shouldn't post a lot of BS about how the Hitmen only make him look good.

richardn

12-05-2005, 11:54 PM

I am not really debating Ellis, there are question marks on all the goalies.

Ellis played for a less then stellar team, with a terrible defence.

They where 2nd place in there division and 3rd best GA in the league but yet they weren't a good team. One could argue that goaltending and defense carried this team to the playoffs and was unable to get the job done in the playoffs for what ever reason.

Attica

12-06-2005, 12:18 AM

I really think Ellis is going to steal the job. He doesn't have the experience the other guys do, but he has big time skill and consistency.

jixxsaw

12-06-2005, 05:20 AM

They where 2nd place in there division and 3rd best GA in the league but yet they weren't a good team. One could argue that goaltending and defense carried this team to the playoffs and was unable to get the job done in the playoffs for what ever reason.

one could also argue that playing 70 games would wear any goalie down, and that stellar defense in front of ellis carried them into the 7th seed in the playoffs, and had cape breton had one more point in the standings the Shawinigan Cataractes wouldnt even see playoff action
Ellis was the mvp and carried a subpar team into the playoffs

Canucksrock

12-06-2005, 06:13 AM

From what i have read and heard, and i can really only comment on Ellis. He is the reason that shawnigan was in any game last eyar stealing games left and right. He played 70! games in the regular season and was just worn out by playoffs. THe defense on team Canada will be good, but not obviously as good as last years. 25 shots a game 30 against good teams. Ellis can handle that hes proven it. Do I think hell get the starting job, no I dont think Sutter likes these types of reflex small goalies. But as a Canuck fan i can hope that he makes it and plays in the gold medal game against Schiender and the USA and it goes to OT in a 0-0 effort! Boring sure but atleast its good for our prospects ;).

richardn

12-06-2005, 10:43 AM

one could also argue that playing 70 games would wear any goalie down, and that stellar defense in front of ellis carried them into the 7th seed in the playoffs, and had cape breton had one more point in the standings the Shawinigan Cataractes wouldnt even see playoff action
Ellis was the mvp and carried a subpar team into the playoffs

How do you figure he played 70 games, he only played in 59 games. If he carried the team to the playoffs he sure choked and let the team down when it counted the most, in one of those 4 games he got the hook.

Calgary was also the 8th seed. Also unlike Ellis, Pogge led his team to a 1st round upset over Lethbridge including a double over time win and a shut out. Calgary would not even made the 2nd round with out Pogge.

mooseOAK

12-06-2005, 10:56 AM

By the way, what were these "Published reports", I would like to see them. And if it is anyone involved with the Hitmen saying this then it is pretty much worthless, as it would be an obvious conflict of interest to say otherwise.

Wow, nice pre-emptive attack against using the opinions of the people closest to the situation and most knowledgeable. Well played.

But in any event he said that he got jerked around in Prince George, one bad game and the other guy was in there and not having a good team there were plenty of those.

richardn

12-06-2005, 10:58 AM

Just to clarify the fact Ellis only played in 59 games last year not 70.

Link (http://www.lhjmq.qc.ca/lang_en/index.php?page=11194745&an=0405&v=v2&typ=&seasonSubType=&report=GoaliesLeadersGeneral)

MarkovForNorris

12-06-2005, 11:59 AM

Just to clarify the fact Ellis only played in 59 games last year not 70.

Link (http://www.lhjmq.qc.ca/lang_en/index.php?page=11194745&an=0405&v=v2&typ=&seasonSubType=&report=GoaliesLeadersGeneral)

That remains a league-high for the Q though. I don't see how your point is revelant. The fact remains that he has seen alot of pucks and started 59 out of 70 games for Shawinigan.

richardn

12-06-2005, 12:11 PM

That remains a league-high for the Q though. I don't see how your point is revelant. The fact remains that he has seen alot of pucks and started 59 out of 70 games for Shawinigan.

I was clearing up some mis information there is a big difference between 70 games and 59.

Anksun

12-06-2005, 12:26 PM

Digger12

12-06-2005, 12:49 PM

Isnt Price the only possible returning goalie for next year out of those 4?

If so, he's a lock on this team. From there, there are only 2 remaining things to decided:

1) which one of: Ellis-Pogge-Dubnik will make it.

2) Who will be the starter between Price and one of those 3.

_____________

I may be wrong, but wasn't Dubnyk in the same position last year that Price is in now?

I'd be hesitant to call any of these 4 guys a lock, no matter who's 19 or who can return next season. It's all about who outperforms who at camp, end of story.

LaLaLaprise

12-06-2005, 01:02 PM

Why are people so hung up on goalie stats???

Honestly. If it came down to Stats than why were 4 goalies invited and not 2??

Anksun

12-06-2005, 02:27 PM

I may be wrong, but wasn't Dubnyk in the same position last year that Price is in now?

I'd be hesitant to call any of these 4 guys a lock, no matter who's 19 or who can return next season. It's all about who outperforms who at camp, end of story.

Sorry, i forget the most important part of my comment:

IF they consider Price at least on par with 2 of those guys, he's in because he can come back next year. You are definitly right, if the other 3 are ahead of him he wont go. Both i still think my 2 points prevent because there is no way all of those 3 guys are clear cut ahead of him at this point. Although the camp could change that (but i would not count on this consider the ridiculously good last month of play from Price.)

Digger12

12-06-2005, 02:41 PM

Sorry, i forget the most important part of my comment:

IF they consider Price at least on par with 2 of those guys, he's in because he can come back next year. You are definitly right, if the other 3 are ahead of him he wont go. Both i still think my 2 points prevent because there is no way all of those 3 guys are clear cut ahead of him at this point. Although the camp could change that (but i would not count on this consider the ridiculously good last month of play from Price.)

Fair enough.

In my humble opinion, if all 4 guys get an equal opportunity and play to the best of their abilities, Dubnyk and Price will make it.

Unfortunately for me as an Oiler fan, I don't have a lot of faith that Dubnyk will rise to the occasion. He's shown a disconcerting habit of not stealing the show in these high pressure, high intensity types of camps...though he did play well at the Oilers training camp, much better than last season.

With these guys so close together, it's gonna be fun to watch.

Mess

12-06-2005, 02:43 PM

Anwser this question Mess (Since you seem to be an avid Pogge follower). How can you explain Pogges INSTANT statistical inflation once traded to the Hitmen? Did he wake up over night a better goalie?.Not sure what last years stats have to do with this years team .. I posted this years stats for Pogge to show how well he has played this season ..

Pogge is a year older, more mature and has worked hard all off season with Eddie Belfour's and the Leafs goalie consultant Steve McKichan .. That may be a factor in his strong play and may be contributing to his success this year ..

The fact that he was not at the summer camp and is now one of four goalies that will represent Team Canada shows that his play this year has caught the eye of the WJC selection committee ..

So no offense intended but whatever you try to toss out as a reason, has no bearing on the outcome and the only thing that will count is Pogge's play and the decision making team that assembles the team ..

Ellis-Plante and Pogge have had better seasons statistically , while Price and Dubynk have international experience ... We will soon find out which factor has more influence when the final team is announced ..

Right now the odds of each goalie is 50/50 as far as I am concerned..

Mizral

12-06-2005, 02:55 PM

Jason MacIsaac

12-06-2005, 03:07 PM

I strongly feel Price is the best of the bunch, but I also feel Pogge will get the job. Both are capable, and both are good selections.

Elis-Plante is good, but is no Price or Pogge.

If I made the team, it'd be Price at #1, and Pogge at #2.
What had Price done to deserve the number 1 job....playing extremely shaky at the under 18 for Canada, how about his subpar performence this year. The best goaltender will get the starting role and I think Ellis is the best option at the moment.

ryz

12-06-2005, 03:11 PM

Take this for what it is worth (which is probably nothing) but there was one of Blair Macasey (sp?) underlings (scout) on Fan960 in Calgary yesterday and he has been around Brent and Blair for the whole selection process and he said he would be shocked if Pogge wasn't 1 of the 2 guys selected at this point. Keep in mind that Sutter's Rebels play Pogge and the Hitmen often and Sutter has had more than a good look at him.

Squeaky

12-06-2005, 05:33 PM

What had Price done to deserve the number 1 job....playing extremely shaky at the under 18 for Canada, how about his subpar performence this year. The best goaltender will get the starting role and I think Ellis is the best option at the moment.

Price has been really excellent pretty much since the start of November. He struggled at first, but if we want to go with who is playing best now (or in camp I guess, let's jsut say "currently" as a sort of blanket statement) you can't argue that Price has been subpar.

417

12-07-2005, 12:22 PM

Maxpac

12-07-2005, 07:22 PM

banana phone

12-07-2005, 07:27 PM

Brulé looks like the next Benoit Brunet and Price is tearing it up in the WHL.
hyperbole.

Pavel Brendl also tore up the WHL at one point in time.

Frogurt

12-07-2005, 07:28 PM

december 6, Try-city(Carey Price) beats Kamloops(Devan Dunbyk) 1-0, another shutout for Price sho stopped all 26 shoys while Dunbyk stopped 19. Price had a hell of a monthin november and is starting december with a lot of confidence as well, at full max potential, this guy will become a game breaker ala Luongo or Brodeur, he has the size,the glove, puck control, rebounds on corners(not in front of the net like Theodore)... Bob Gainey is making every hockey fan and annnouncer(including myself) look real dumb! i was pissed as hell like most hab fans when we drafted Price instead of Brulé and look what happends 3 months later, Brulé looks like the next Benoit Brunet and Price is tearing it up in the WHL.

A month does not a career make. Price still has a long way to go.

As for the present, his excellent play since the beginning of November will really help his chances of making Team Canada, which I'm sure is a big motivating factor behind his play. And if he makes Team Canada, this could turn out to be a great World Juniors to watch for Hab fans.

Blackshad

12-07-2005, 07:40 PM

Ellis

SpezNc

12-07-2005, 08:31 PM

I'm rooting for Carey Price...

For the backup I would like either Pogge or Ellis :)

Montréal Russians

12-07-2005, 08:34 PM

i cant wait to see the player arrivals on sunday and see what they say.

Asiaoil

12-07-2005, 08:39 PM

Just wanted to point out that the last month Carey Price has been unreal for Tri City...and those who follow Tri City know just how horrible that team is, after a shaky start to the season, he's come back very strong right in time for Team Canada selection camp...

The last month, his stats read...

12GP - 7-1-3-1 - 1.88GAA - 0.938Sv% - 3 SO

I've believed from the beginning that Price will have to completely suck, to not make this team...whether or not he's #1 remains to be seen, but i'm almost 100% sure he'll make the team, in fact in my mind, he already is and the battle is between the 3 other goalies...

Like Price - Dubnyk started slow but has also been outstanding over the last month - in Dubnyk's last 12 games since Novemeber 5 he has a SP of .929 and and GAA of about 1.75.

Both guys play on terrible teams and are outstanding goalies - but if I HAD to choose - well Price is probably a smidge better right now. But these are the WJC goalies if Sutter has any sense.

Montréal Russians

12-07-2005, 09:04 PM

I hope the management takes the best 2 goalies no matter what, the least shaky and toughest mentally should be the goalie.

Aaron Vickers

12-08-2005, 04:55 AM

For those trying to debate the effectiveness (or lack there of) of Pogge this season:

Pogge has stellar statistics. He also has an excellent defense in front of him, that do not offer up a lot of shots. When he gets shots, he stops them. When he gets few shots against, he stops them. When he sees tons of rubber, he stops them.

Bottom line, he stops pucks.

He doesn't have the size and ability to take away the net like Dubnyk, that's certain.

He doesn't have the flair for making a spectacular save like Price, that's certain.

Pogge doesn't need to take up the entire net like Dubnyk. He's always square to the shooter and focused on the puck. His positioning allows him to make saves that Dubnyk might otherwise stop based on size.

Pogge doesn't need to have the flair for making a spectacular save. In fact, very rarely does he (aside from a nice glove or lateral movement across the crease from time to time). Pogge doesn't need to. His positioning allows him to make saves that Price might otherwise stop based on his flair for the dramatics.

The more I hear about Pogge and his statistics, the more I think of Jeff Glass last year. The more I hear about Pogge's defense in Calgary, I think about Kootenay last year. The more I think about the above two paragraphs, I think of Glass last year.

Funny thing is, Pogge's referenced Glass and what he was able to do a few times in the media. Seems like Pogge is following Glass considerably at this point.

(Please note I did not comment on where Ellis lies. I have not seen him, nor claim to know anything about his game. I've seen Dubnyk and Price a handful of times, enough to be comfortable to comment on their respective games.)

Rahan

12-08-2005, 11:18 AM

hyperbole.

Pavel Brendl also tore up the WHL at one point in time.

Yeah, Pavel had such an incredible GAA... (?!)

Price is a goalie. Not the same thing as a cherry picking forward.

VanW27

12-08-2005, 11:51 AM

He doesn't have the size and ability to take away the net like Dubnyk, that's certain.

U make some excellent points as someone who has seen the three WHL goalies play (at least u sound like u have) unlike many posters, but one thing is Pogge does have the size he is listed as 6-3 or 6-4 depending where u look so size is one of his strong points.

Ryan O'Byrne

12-08-2005, 12:45 PM

I think they will go with Price and pogge .
That way they have a Goalie that can steal games and one that can step in and play solid like Glass did just in case Price blows the first game or 2

417

12-08-2005, 12:56 PM

Unlike fans from a certain team in this thread...i don't care who the goalie is as long as he gives us the best chance to win...of course i'm rooting for Price since he's Habs property, but if Sutter chooses Pogge, Dubnyk or Ellis ahead of him...i'll root for them just as much as I would Price...

This is an international tournament, who cares about team affiliations

Garp

12-08-2005, 12:57 PM

I think they will go with Price and pogge .
That way they have a Goalie that can steal games and one that can step in and play solid like Glass did just in case Price blows the first game or 2
I think that's a good way to see it.

We have also to remember that if we only had Glass in goals this year, I don't think we would be able to reach the big final. We do need a G that will steal a game or two.

Habsaku

12-08-2005, 01:10 PM

417

12-08-2005, 01:16 PM

You should, international tournies are a big part of development and confidence.

:dunno: I just want to see Canada win...if Pogge (leafs prospect) gets picked instead of Price, then i'll root for Pogge during the tournament, and worry about why Price didn't make it later...

I just find it ridiculous people who root for a certain player to do bad, just so they're teams drafted player can take their place... :shakehead

ATG

12-08-2005, 01:25 PM

I would like to see Pogge win the starting job especially in the first game against Finland as he would face fellow leaf goalie prospect Tukka Rask

Mess

12-08-2005, 01:42 PM

For those trying to debate the effectiveness (or lack there of) of Pogge this season:

Pogge has stellar statistics. He also has an excellent defense in front of him, that do not offer up a lot of shots. When he gets shots, he stops them. When he gets few shots against, he stops them. When he sees tons of rubber, he stops them.

Bottom line, he stops pucks.

He doesn't have the size and ability to take away the net like Dubnyk, that's certain.

He doesn't have the flair for making a spectacular save like Price, that's certain.

Pogge doesn't need to take up the entire net like Dubnyk. He's always square to the shooter and focused on the puck. His positioning allows him to make saves that Dubnyk might otherwise stop based on size.

Pogge doesn't need to have the flair for making a spectacular save. In fact, very rarely does he (aside from a nice glove or lateral movement across the crease from time to time). Pogge doesn't need to. His positioning allows him to make saves that Price might otherwise stop based on his flair for the dramatics.

The more I hear about Pogge and his statistics, the more I think of Jeff Glass last year. The more I hear about Pogge's defense in Calgary, I think about Kootenay last year. The more I think about the above two paragraphs, I think of Glass last year.

Funny thing is, Pogge's referenced Glass and what he was able to do a few times in the media. Seems like Pogge is following Glass considerably at this point.

You know ..

It wouldn't be a bad strategy for Team Canada and Brent Sutter to model his team and player personnel after the Flames/Hitmen Model ..

The WJC will lack experience as only dman Cam Barker returns and so the "awesome defensively" approach may in fact be the best one to defend against a high powered US sqaud .. Particularly when the Tournnament is on home ice and winning more crucial then ever for overall success of the event ..

The fact that 17 year old Jonathan Toews and 16 year old Angelo Esposito are at the winter selection camp is a good indicator that the forward and offensive situation is in doubt currently ..

Defense wins championships so this may be the best roll model to deploy

Mackattack

12-08-2005, 02:32 PM

They have to pick the goaltender that best suits this team...

For example, last year, it was known that Canada would have a powerhouse team that probably would only allow 10-15 shots a game. Therefore, they needed a goalie in net that would take long streches without seeing any action and make saves when needed. Thats why they chose Glass, he suited the job perfectly.

This year is different, however as Canada doesn't really have a powerhouse team and are going to be in tough with the likes of the US and Russia. Therefore, they need a goalie that can steal games for them and keep them in the game when needed.

Going with this theory, Price is definately the best choice out of the 4, simply because nobody can steal games like he can.

Charge_Seven

12-08-2005, 02:38 PM

I'm hoping we pick the guy who will win us the gold.

That being said I'd love to see the Leafs prospect Pogge steal the spot away, not sure how likely it is. But his confidence should be way up, and it'd be a big thing for the Leafs organization to have two goalies starting for WJC teams (Pogge, and Rask).

I don't really know enough about all the goalies to make an accurate bet on who is going to win the spot though.

Freaky Habs Fan

12-08-2005, 02:43 PM

12-08-2005, 03:03 PM

Price will end up being the number 1 guy. It really would have been nice to see Kyle Moir from Swift Current atleast get an invite. Hes a goalie thats been keeping his awful team in games everytime hes in the net, but gets no recognition due to his teams poor play.

Aaron Vickers

12-08-2005, 03:36 PM

U make some excellent points as someone who has seen the three WHL goalies play (at least u sound like u have) unlike many posters, but one thing is Pogge does have the size he is listed as 6-3 or 6-4 depending where u look so size is one of his strong points.

While Pogge is definitely bigger than 6'2 (I stood beside him last night), his size isn't something that is a significant advantage in net in terms of the way he plays. He's not the type of goaltender who stops pucks because he's big.

That's more to what I was referring.

banana phone

12-08-2005, 04:02 PM

Yeah, Pavel had such an incredible GAA... (?!)

Price is a goalie. Not the same thing as a cherry picking forward.
I realize that, but its getting hard to see some Hab fans claim he is the next Patrick Roy, after they critizised him to no end in the summer.

Price is a good goalie, and is playing good hockey, but WHL numbers don't always (or very often) translate into NHL numbers.

Rand

12-08-2005, 04:24 PM

I hope the management takes the best 2 goalies no matter what
What else would he do?

I can't imagine he's intentionall going to choose a lesser goaltender. The goal is to win afterall ;)
Obviously the goaltenders chosen will be the best two goalies in his opinion.

AndyDusso

12-08-2005, 04:25 PM

For a short tournament you look to have some consistency. Justin Pogge has played great this year but he reminds me of Nastiuk last year, I'm not sure Pogge will be able to beat at least 2 goalies to fit in.

As for Dubnyk IMO he is the same style of Price but even if Price is younger, I feel Price has shown more on international level than Dubnyk who never really dominates.

I really like Ellis, maybe odds are against him because he plays in the Q but I figure he is the goalie who is the most constant. For that reason I see Ellis as the backup for sure. It will be a battle between Pogge, Dubnyk and Price for the #1 and I feel Price will lead. He is the best talented goalie and a really calm goalie.

Let Price start the tournament and if he does not deliver, Ellis will be a perfect fit...

I'm looking for a goalie who can steal a game but also a goalie who is not cold...I know Price has been up and down but he has played great last month and to me is the best goalie. Plus he is a 1987 which would help for next year even if it might not be taken into consideration!

But Canada will be O.K. between the pipes but guys like Schwarz, Rask are really good, and the US with Schneider is also better.

MarkovForNorris

12-08-2005, 04:38 PM

I realize that, but its getting hard to see some Hab fans claim he is the next Patrick Roy, after they critizised him to no end in the summer.

Wow, that's just wrong. I've never seen anything like that about Price on these boards. He's an elite prospect for sure, and to think he could be Theodore's replacement easily around 2009 is not reach. Claiming he's the next Patrick Roy though: you won't hear that from any Habs fan on these very boards, even the most biased.

BobbyClarkeFan16

12-08-2005, 04:42 PM

Wow, that's just wrong. I've never seen anything like that about Price on these boards. He's an elite prospect for sure, and to think he could be Theodore's replacement easily around 2009 is not reach. Claiming he's the next Patrick Roy though: you won't hear that from any Habs fan on these very boards, even the most biased.

The only reason they won't claim Price as the next Patrick Roy is because he's not french. If he were, then there'd be all kinds of claims. However, I'm not surprised that nobody called him the 2nd coming of Ken Dryden. After all, Dryden is a good English boy, much like Price. I'm sure Price will also have to learn to speak French if he's going to play in Montreal. If he doesn't, the separatist journalists will eat him and the Montreal organization alive.

banana phone

12-08-2005, 04:43 PM

this guy will become a game breaker ala Luongo or Brodeur.
maybe I overexaggerated with Roy, but you see what I mean.. Habs fans are great posters, but some of them pimp their prospects to no end..

I have nothing against Price, and wouldn't be suprised if he starts for this team,but bashing the other goalies in favour of your own teams prospect is stupid, especially when they are all still 18-20 years old.

417

12-08-2005, 05:09 PM

I realize that, but its getting hard to see some Hab fans claim he is the next Patrick Roy, after they critizised him to no end in the summer.Price is a good goalie, and is playing good hockey, but WHL numbers don't always (or very often) translate into NHL numbers.

I recall Habs fans being upset at the pick, but I don't recall anyone claiming he's the next Patrick Roy... :dunno: not sure where you got that from...

Habs fans were upset for no reason, too much listening to Pierre McGuire and not enough trusting guys who've been successful at drafting.

417

12-08-2005, 05:10 PM

The only reason they won't claim Price as the next Patrick Roy is because he's not french. If he were, then there'd be all kinds of claims. However, I'm not surprised that nobody called him the 2nd coming of Ken Dryden. After all, Dryden is a good English boy, much like Price. I'm sure Price will also have to learn to speak French if he's going to play in Montreal. If he doesn't, the separatist journalists will eat him and the Montreal organization alive.

Ok then... :dunno:

sXe

12-08-2005, 05:54 PM

. I'm sure Price will also have to learn to speak French if he's going to play in Montreal. If he doesn't, the separatist journalists will eat him and the Montreal organization alive.

You mean like our Captain for the last 7 years?

417

12-08-2005, 06:46 PM

:biglaugh: I swear, reading other teams boards...people are actually rooting for goalies to fail, just to see their own team's goaltender be the starter...how ridiculous :shakehead

Towelie*

12-08-2005, 06:55 PM

:biglaugh: I swear, reading other teams boards...people are actually rooting for goalies to fail, just to see their own team's goaltender be the starter...how ridiculous :shakehead

I hate people that use that condescending smiley. Like you are better then everyone else because of a position taken on a hockey board.

And yes, I am actively rooting, and won't deny it, Dubnyk, Price and Pogge to fail in order for Ellis to succeed. Success and failure are relative words during competition.

TheDynasty

12-08-2005, 07:02 PM

Montreal fan here.

As much as I like the Price pick, and continue to think the Habs scouting staff really knows what they are doing, I have to admit he hasn't been the most consistent of the options over the last season and a bit. Neither has Dubnyk for that matter, but they've both been really good since around the last week of October.

That being said, Pogge and Ellis have far better seasons under their belts, and Ellis has been very very solid (outside of a playoff hiccup) for probably over two seasons now. I still really can't believe where Vancouver picked this guy. Though Pogge plays for hands down the best team out of any of the goaltenders, I don't know as much about him, but his numbers speak for themselves.

All of Dubnyk, Price and Ellis have very questionable defensive units in front of them, so basically I think it is really going to come down to camp. I'm obviously pulling for Price (at least a bit), but gotta admit he's been very up and down this season and the last thing Team Canada needs is for him to enter one of his slumps during the tournmanent. Following the Q fairly closely it's seemed to me that Ellis has always enjoyed large shot totals, which is something I think this Team Canada might have problems with.

If I had to predict I'd say they would take a 1a/1b tandem of Price/Ellis and go with the hot hand.

417

12-08-2005, 07:04 PM

I hate people that use that condescending smiley. Like you are better then everyone else because of a position taken on a hockey board.

And yes, I am actively rooting, and won't deny it, Dubnyk, Price and Pogge to fail in order for Ellis to succeed. Success and failure are relative words during competition.

Sorry, i didn't make the smilies and they were the best animations which could describe my feelings at the moment...

If you root for a guy to fail, just so you're guy can get in...well, that's great...I find it weak and immature...I just want Canada to win, and if Justin Pogge a prospect from the Maple Leafs, makes the team ahead of Carey Price a prospect for my Montreal Canadiens, i'll cheer for Pogge to do as well as he can and i'll worry about why Price didn't make the cut later...

This isn't an all start game...it's international, so whether you're a fan of USA, Germany, Finland or Canada...it's national pride that takes precedent over NHL team affiliation IMO, or else what's the point of having these international tourney's, might as well just have an annual world prospect tournament :dunno:

Namso

12-08-2005, 08:29 PM

And yes, I am actively rooting, and won't deny it, Dubnyk, Price and Pogge to fail in order for Ellis to succeed. Success and failure are relative words during competition.
i'm rooting for dubnyk, pogge and ellis to fail and PRICE to succeed.
I'm also hoping that all the forwards and dman on Canada don't score except Latendresse and Chipchura.

Go Habs Prospects!

You should be able to cheer for whoever you want. You can't say that just because its an international tournament you have to cheer for countries and not individuals.

It would be sweet though to see all 3 of them succeed AND canada win.

Phaneuf*

12-08-2005, 08:38 PM

My guess is many of you saying no Pogge have never seen him play. He's a very quick goalie and has stole a few games for the Hitmen this year. He's so quick to cover the five hole and he's got a great glove hand.

Price
Pogge

banana phone

12-08-2005, 08:44 PM

^ all of these 4 goalies are great talents, which is why its such a debate as to who will win the job(s).

CH Wizard*

12-08-2005, 08:53 PM

No way, Price won't be the #1 goalie with the kind of numbers, he has been putting as of late.

MarkovForNorris

12-08-2005, 09:01 PM

No way, Price won't be the #1 goalie with the kind of numbers, he has been putting as of late.

Oh, the irony! Dan (montreal) has just posted his "Habs prospect of the month" thread. Guess who won the title this month? Yeah, Carey Price.

VanW27

12-08-2005, 09:05 PM

My guess is Price as the starter and Pogge as back-up but i think Ellis could be either the Starter or the Backup. I think Dubnyk is the least likely to make the team at least at this moment.

Garp

12-08-2005, 10:32 PM

But Canada will be O.K. between the pipes but guys like Schwarz, Rask are really good, and the US with Schneider is also better.

I think that Canada are going to be better between the pipes than at least USA and Finland.

Lets not overrate USA, They have an outstanding offense but...

Towelie*

12-08-2005, 11:15 PM

Sorry, i didn't make the smilies and they were the best animations which could describe my feelings at the moment...

If you root for a guy to fail, just so you're guy can get in...well, that's great...I find it weak and immature...I just want Canada to win, and if Justin Pogge a prospect from the Maple Leafs, makes the team ahead of Carey Price a prospect for my Montreal Canadiens, i'll cheer for Pogge to do as well as he can and i'll worry about why Price didn't make the cut later...

This isn't an all start game...it's international, so whether you're a fan of USA, Germany, Finland or Canada...it's national pride that takes precedent over NHL team affiliation IMO, or else what's the point of having these international tourney's, might as well just have an annual world prospect tournament :dunno:

You find it weak and immature? Simply stunning. So if the Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadiens met in the Eastern Confernce finals, and it was game seven, you wouldn't be rooting for the Maple Leafs to fail? For if you are rooting for the Maple Leafs to fail, you are subsequently rooting for the individual players, who make up the Leafs, to fail. Who is immature and weak now?

Why do you assume that I would cheer against Pogge if he did indeed became the starter for team Canada? That's not the case at all. I am however, actively rooting for them to fail so that I can root for Ellis whilst rooting for Canada.

I think it is ironic and comical how your lack of understanding has led to your own feeling of superiority (That you are not "weal" or "immature".

Montréal Russians

12-08-2005, 11:30 PM

Hey its like i said the best 2 goalies, also i think sutter will select 2 WHL goaltenders.

417

12-08-2005, 11:33 PM

You find it weak and immature? Simply stunning. So if the Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadiens met in the Eastern Confernce finals, and it was game seven, you wouldn't be rooting for the Maple Leafs to fail? For if you are rooting for the Maple Leafs to fail, you are subsequently rooting for the individual players, who make up the Leafs, to fail. Who is immature and weak now?

Why do you assume that I would cheer against Pogge if he did indeed became the starter for team Canada? That's not the case at all. I am however, actively rooting for them to fail so that I can root for Ellis whilst rooting for Canada.

I think it is ironic and comical how your lack of understanding has led to your own feeling of superiority (That you are not "weal" or "immature".

Ok, 1st of all...i'm talking about Team Canada, it's not an NHL team, my affiliation to Team Canada is the team, not necessarily the individual players, sure i'd love for Latendresse, Price and Chipchura to all star but I don't cheer for Pogge to suck so Price can can shine instead...I don't secretly cheer for one of the other centers to stink it up so Chipchura can play a scoring role, etc....You're trying to take what i'm saying out of context, and I never assumed you would cheer for Pogge, I don't know where you're getting that from :dunno: If you choose to root for other players to fail so Ellis can get his :clap: good for you

I also cheer for my Habs players, but never at the expense of others who are trying to make the team...I do find it weak, it shows insecurity...I knew from day 1 Price was a good pick for the Habs and a good goalie, I don't need to his competitor to fail to realize that...

My lack of understanding huh? Feeling of superiority?

How you got all of that by my post, i'm not sure...i thought it was the norm for fans of Team Canada to want their team to succeed...I don't mind someone wanting their team prospect to make it ahead of another, I just find it dumb when they're hoping and praying the other player sucks, so there's can get it...If that's you're and others type of thing :dunno: more power to you, I just find it weak

Towelie*

12-09-2005, 01:37 AM

Ok, 1st of all...i'm talking about Team Canada, it's not an NHL team, my affiliation to Team Canada is the team, not necessarily the individual players, sure i'd love for Latendresse, Price and Chipchura to all star but I don't cheer for Pogge to suck so Price can can shine instead...I don't secretly cheer for one of the other centers to stink it up so Chipchura can play a scoring role, etc....You're trying to take what i'm saying out of context, and I never assumed you would cheer for Pogge, I don't know where you're getting that from :dunno: If you choose to root for other players to fail so Ellis can get his :clap: good for you

I also cheer for my Habs players, but never at the expense of others who are trying to make the team...I do find it weak, it shows insecurity...I knew from day 1 Price was a good pick for the Habs and a good goalie, I don't need to his competitor to fail to realize that...

My lack of understanding huh? Feeling of superiority?

How you got all of that by my post, i'm not sure...i thought it was the norm for fans of Team Canada to want their team to succeed...I don't mind someone wanting their team prospect to make it ahead of another, I just find it dumb when they're hoping and praying the other player sucks, so there's can get it...If that's you're and others type of thing :dunno: more power to you, I just find it weak

"I do find it weak, it shows insecurity"
Right....... I am not a psycologist, but I am pretty sure you are wrong.

I still don't think you get my point. I want Canada to get a gold medal. By hoping Pogge, Price, or Dubnyk fails hows no outcome on Canada's chances. I hope that Ellis wins the starting job - from that I have no idea how you think that means I don't want Canada to win?

Aaron Vickers

12-09-2005, 05:43 AM

No way, Price won't be the #1 goalie with the kind of numbers, he has been putting as of late.

You mean the kind of numbers Pogge's put up all year?

Numbers wont make you the starter or the backup.

Justin Pogge put it best when talking to Hockey Now. Two goaltenders aren't going to make this team because others have poor stats. You'll have to play your *** off in order to make this team.

At this point, numbers mean nothing. Camp means everything, and how comfortable Sutter will feel with these goalies between the pipes.

417

12-09-2005, 12:14 PM

"I do find it weak, it shows insecurity"
Right....... I am not a psycologist, but I am pretty sure you are wrong.

I still don't think you get my point. I want Canada to get a gold medal. By hoping Pogge, Price, or Dubnyk fails hows no outcome on Canada's chances. I hope that Ellis wins the starting job - from that I have no idea how you think that means I don't want Canada to win?

You're the one who failing to understand my point, I never said that you don't want Canada to win, I said if you're actively rooting for certain players to fail, so your teams prospect can get the spot....that I find it weak and insecure.

Like I said, if you hope for Pogge, Price and Dubnyk to fail, just so Ellis gets the starting job, that's great. IMO, if you think Ellis is all that, like it seems you do, you shouldn't have to hope for the 3 others to fail.

Really, I don't even know why you got into this with me :dunno: I made a general statement towards people who cheer for one of the goalies to suck during their league games, leading up to the tournament, just so their prospect can get in. I wasn't referring to you personally...why you chose to get on this crusade :dunno:

But like I said, if that's your cup of tea, good for you, different strokes for different folks I guess...but like I said, Price is my guy, I thought he'd be the starter for Team Canada from day 1, so I don't need Justin Pogge to lose by 4 goals tomorrow night so I can convince myself Price will be the starter.

Last point...you made this comment in your earlier post.

By hoping Pogge, Price, or Dubnyk fails hows no outcome on Canada's chances.

I understand where you're coming from with that comment, however, aren't you cheering for Team Canada? Why would you root for players who are going to represent their country, your country, to fail?

I understand wanting your 'guy' in their, but in these international tournaments, I just think team affiliations should take a back seat to national pride. Are you going to resent Team Canada if Price makes it ahead of Ellis and he wins the best goaltender award?

Either way, you have you're way of thinking on this issue, I have my way...so let's just agree to disagree, and go Canada go!

Genghis Keon

12-09-2005, 01:06 PM

"I do find it weak, it shows insecurity"
Right....... I am not a psycologist, but I am pretty sure you are wrong.

I still don't think you get my point. I want Canada to get a gold medal. By hoping Pogge, Price, or Dubnyk fails hows no outcome on Canada's chances. I hope that Ellis wins the starting job - from that I have no idea how you think that means I don't want Canada to win?

I think you're missing his whole point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that you're rooting for Ellis, which implicitly means you want the others to fail (since you want Ellis as the starter, one of the other goalies will be the backup and two won't make the team, so they'll technically fail), right?

417 is talking about people hoping others fail, so that their guy can make the team. So it's like going to your own tryouts and hoping that all the other guys competing for your spot will suck, instead of hoping that you're the best guy there. If you want the other guys to suck, you want them to suck because it'll make you look better and give you a better chance of making the team. Now let's take an other guy in the tryouts; he's hoping he plays his best and makes the team because he is the best. He doesn't particularly care how anyone else does, so long as he plays well. Doesn't the first guy seem weak and petty, especially compared to the second guy? I think that's 417's whole point (417, correct me if I'm wrong). There's absolutely nothing wrong with rooting for your guy. And, technically, there's nothing wrong to hope that other guys do poorly to make your guy look better (it's natural human instinct--putting others down to feel better about ourselves), but it is still weak and shows insecurity if you do actively hope others fail to make your guy look better, even if everyone does it (even if they keep their feelings inside).

417

12-09-2005, 01:17 PM

Charge_Seven

12-09-2005, 01:18 PM

Towelie*

12-09-2005, 06:20 PM

I think you're missing his whole point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that you're rooting for Ellis, which implicitly means you want the others to fail (since you want Ellis as the starter, one of the other goalies will be the backup and two won't make the team, so they'll technically fail), right?

417 is talking about people hoping others fail, so that their guy can make the team. So it's like going to your own tryouts and hoping that all the other guys competing for your spot will suck, instead of hoping that you're the best guy there. If you want the other guys to suck, you want them to suck because it'll make you look better and give you a better chance of making the team. Now let's take an other guy in the tryouts; he's hoping he plays his best and makes the team because he is the best. He doesn't particularly care how anyone else does, so long as he plays well. Doesn't the first guy seem weak and petty, especially compared to the second guy? I think that's 417's whole point (417, correct me if I'm wrong). There's absolutely nothing wrong with rooting for your guy. And, technically, there's nothing wrong to hope that other guys do poorly to make your guy look better (it's natural human instinct--putting others down to feel better about ourselves), but it is still weak and shows insecurity if you do actively hope others fail to make your guy look better, even if everyone does it (even if they keep their feelings inside).

I think philosophically and structurally your wrong. I will use your try out example as mine as well. First you are presenting exhibit "A" as being different then exhibit "B" as completely different exhibits. You are failing to understand that success and failure are relative terms. Exhibit "A' is hoping, as you said, that everyone else fails so that he succeeds. While your present a case where exhibit "B" hopes he is the best, and thus succeeds. These cases are essentially the same.

Exhibit "B" may be psycologically hoping for him to be the best (Hoping for his success). However, psycologically, you cannot hope for your own success (Exhibit A) and also hope for you opponents success (Exhibit A) (If the situation only allows one to succeed). Its a psycological contradiction. You would be in fact psycologically hoping for your success, and failure - which is impossible. I hope you can see that it is imposible for "Exhibit B" to psycologically do as you say, which is both hope for his success (Which you define as hoping to be the best player) but at the same time be indifferent or hoping for the failure of his competitors.

Exhibit "A" and "B" are one in the same.

And, technically, there's nothing wrong to hope that other guys do poorly to make your guy look better (it's natural human instinct--putting others down to feel better about ourselves), but it is still weak and shows insecurity if you do actively hope others fail to make your guy look better, even if everyone does it (even if they keep their feelings inside). -

You contradict yourself and essentially disprove yourself. You conclude, as I do to, that it is "natural human instinct" to feel this way, or you could say, the psycological norm. Then you conclude that those feelings are weak and insecure. But how can the norm, be weak, or strong for that matter. Being weak or strong is a relative term. When you say someone is weak, you are comparing him to someone who is not, or who is strong.

Basically, you have said that normal humans would feel the same way I do, but then declare it weak and insecure? The norm cannot be weak, nor insecure. If the weak is norm, then what is weak? Super weak? The words weak and insecure are relative terms refering to a norm. Therefore the norm cannot be weak or insecure - because by default - it is the norm.

Genghis Keon

12-09-2005, 08:36 PM

I think philosophically and structurally your wrong. I will use your try out example as mine as well. First you are presenting exhibit "A" as being different then exhibit "B" as completely different exhibits. You are failing to understand that success and failure are relative terms. Exhibit "A' is hoping, as you said, that everyone else fails so that he succeeds. While your present a case where exhibit "B" hopes he is the best, and thus succeeds. These cases are essentially the same.

Exhibit "B" may be psycologically hoping for him to be the best (Hoping for his success). However, psycologically, you cannot hope for your own success (Exhibit A) and also hope for you opponents success (Exhibit A) (If the situation only allows one to succeed). Its a psycological contradiction. You would be in fact psycologically hoping for your success, and failure - which is impossible. I hope you can see that it is imposible for "Exhibit B" to psycologically do as you say, which is both hope for his success (Which you define as hoping to be the best player) but at the same time be indifferent or hoping for the failure of his competitors.

Exhibit "A" and "B" are one in the same.

-

You contradict yourself and essentially disprove yourself. You conclude, as I do to, that it is "natural human instinct" to feel this way, or you could say, the psycological norm. Then you conclude that those feelings are weak and insecure. But how can the norm, be weak, or strong for that matter. Being weak or strong is a relative term. When you say someone is weak, you are comparing him to someone who is not, or who is strong.

Basically, you have said that normal humans would feel the same way I do, but then declare it weak and insecure? The norm cannot be weak, nor insecure. If the weak is norm, then what is weak? Super weak? The words weak and insecure are relative terms refering to a norm. Therefore the norm cannot be weak or insecure - because by default - it is the norm.

Your whole argument is based on the relativity of success and failure (in hoping that someone succeeds, you are, by definition, hoping that others fail) and the relativity of the word weak (if everyone is weak, you can't claim anyone is weak because weak compared to weak isn't actually weak), right? So, it's basically a semantical argument, right?

So let's change the terms, so that they essentially say the same thing 417 has said all along, but that takes out the semantical argument (417 can say if it conveys what he originally meant or not): It's pathetic and petty that some people on boards that he's seen actually explicitly hope for players to play poorly (in relation to their normal performance levels and their expected capabilities), so that, implicitly, the player drafted by their team looks better in comparison and thus makes the team. Do you agree/disagree?

Towelie*

12-09-2005, 09:33 PM

Your whole argument is based on the relativity of success and failure (in hoping that someone succeeds, you are, by definition, hoping that others fail) and the relativity of the word weak (if everyone is weak, you can't claim anyone is weak because weak compared to weak isn't actually weak), right? So, it's basically a semantical argument, right?

So let's change the terms, so that they essentially say the same thing 417 has said all along, but that takes out the semantical argument (417 can say if it conveys what he originally meant or not): It's pathetic and petty that some people on boards that he's seen actually explicitly hope for players to play poorly (in relation to their normal performance levels and their expected capabilities), so that, implicitly, the player drafted by their team looks better in comparison and thus makes the team. Do you agree/disagree?

I agree its a semantics argument. I just don't think cheering for someone to fail, because it is essentially a relative term,"pathedic and petty" as you put it. Unless you think everyone is petty and pathedic? Because we have concluded its an inherent part of human nature/

Genghis Keon

12-09-2005, 11:14 PM

I agree its a semantics argument. I just don't think cheering for someone to fail, because it is essentially a relative term,"pathedic and petty" as you put it. Unless you think everyone is petty and pathedic? Because we have concluded its an inherent part of human nature/

Just to elaborate my position, I think it's human nature to, I don't know, relish in the misfortunes of others (Alexander Pope has a great line about that in "An Essay on Criticism"), but, other than when we're feeling insecure about ourselves, I don't think many people actively hope others fail, or make fools of themselves, or whatever. Like if you see a guy walking down the street and he slips on a patch of ice and falls flat on his back, most people are going to laugh at him. If it looks really bad or if you realize he's hurt you won't laugh or will stop laughing, but if he just hurt his pride, I think most people would laugh (generally speaking, I think younger people laugh at more than older people because they are generally more robust, so the same person falling looks different to eyes of a 20 year old and a 50 year old). I think most psychologists would say that we laugh because we're happy it's not us and it covers up the anxiety we feel when we subconsciously put ourselves into the fallers place (it gives us a conscious feeling of superiority to cover our unconscious anxiety and feelings of inferiority). Like, I don't think there's anything inherently funny about someone falling down in and of itself. I might be wrong, but I also don't think many people just see random people on the street and hope they fall because that way that person looks like a clumsy fool, which would give anyone watching a sense of superiority (really an unconscious reaction against anxiety and inferiority).

I think the only time people actively or consciously hope for others to fail or make fools of themselves is when our feelings of inferiority are most present in our conscious minds, like in tests or tryouts or competing over a girl or the like, when it comes down to a few people and if you don't have a higher mark or you don't make the team or don't get the girl, you feel like failure. In those cases, when you're really the most vulnerable, I think a lot of people hope the other guy fails the test (so, at worst, you don't feel like a complete idiot for failing too), or screws up the tryout, or you hope that something happens to the guy or the guy does something so the girl thinks he's an idiot, so you get the girl.

So, to apply this to the case of the goalies, I think it's natural to root for your guy, and if the other goalies do happen to struggle, you are naturally going to be happy about it (at least until they make Team Canada, in which case they'll have your full support), but I don't think that it's natural to actively hope the other guys struggle, unless you have a sense of inferiority through your guy (your team, your players, often become a part of you, at least in a sense--at least that's what I think). If you're feeling inferior through your guy, then I think it's natural to hope the others fail, so your guy succeeds, which in turn gives you a sense of superiority through the player you're cheering for.

I don't know if you share this view, and I'm no psychologist, so I don't even know if it's a credible psychological view or just a bunch of unsubstantiated hot air, but that's the way I see things at least. So "pathetic" and "petty" might be too strong, but I definitely think there would be inferiority issues involved if someone actively hopes for someone else's misfortunes or struggles, and, depending on your outlook, it might be seen as pathetic or petty.

Mess

12-13-2005, 05:54 AM

The most interesting battles this week should be at goaltender. Over the years, WHL goaltenders have had a tough time making the team and then landing the starting job, which have traditionally gone to a netminder from Quebec. But three of the four invitees this year are from the WHL.

Julien Ellis of the Shawinigan Cataractes and Justin Pogge of the Calgary Hitmen are coming to selection camp with the best numbers so far this season, but Dubnyk and Carey Price of the Tri-City Americans are also talented goalies.

"The goaltender has to win you hockey games," Sutter said. "You can't let in bad goals. A bad goal in this tournament can kill you and deflate you not just for that game, but for the series."

http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story.asp?id=146672 (http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story.asp?id=146672)

TSN has a Audio / Video report on the goalies

Net GAIN
TSN's Farhan Lalji profiles Canada's netminders at World Junior camp.
http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/

vintagecanuck

12-13-2005, 07:06 PM

Either the back up is horrible or Ellis is that damn good. From what I hear in order for Shawinigan to win, Ellis must steal the game. And he has a winning record! I beleive that if Ellis is named the #1 goalie for team canada we will finally have someone between the pipes with that game stealing abililty. I think the only thing that could hold him off the team is coach Sutters prefference for western players.

Shawinigan Netminders:
Name gp-w-l gaa sp shots/game
Ellis 24-14-9 2.96 .909 32.5
MacFarlane 12-3-6 4.62 .854 31.7

Mess

12-14-2005, 01:12 AM

Todays goalie results in camp

Red beats White in Canada scrimmage

Hockey Canada
Canadian Press
12/13/2005 10:50:52 PM

VANCOUVER (CP) - Benoit Pouliot did what he has to do to play for the Canadian junior men's hockey team with a pair of goals in Tuesday's intra-squad game in a 4-0 win for the Red team over the White.

Red goalie Justin Pogge of the Calgary Hitmen made 13 saves for the shutout while White netminder Devan Dubnyk of the Kamloops Blazers had a rougher outing, allowing four goals on 17 shots.

http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story.asp?ID=146896&hubName=world_jrs (http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story.asp?ID=146896&hubName=world_jrs)

Montréal Russians

12-14-2005, 01:25 AM

i think the 2 goalies will be Pogge and Price, Price being starter because he faces more shots and is known for his cool deminure. Pogge seems to be very consistent.

AgentNaslund*

12-14-2005, 05:53 AM

I strongly feel Price is the best of the bunch, but I also feel Pogge will get the job. Both are capable, and both are good selections.

Elis-Plante is good, but is no Price or Pogge.

If I made the team, it'd be Price at #1, and Pogge at #2.

why do you say that Jay? Ellis is the best goalie in the QMJHL. To say hes no Price or Pogge.... pls explain. thx. Does it have anything to do with draft position?

Jason MacIsaac

12-14-2005, 07:28 AM

why do you say that Jay? Ellis is the best goalie in the QMJHL. To say hes no Price or Pogge.... pls explain. thx. Does it have anything to do with draft position?
Best canadian goaltender in the QMJHL, Pavelec gets the nod for best goaltender.

oil slick

12-14-2005, 10:15 AM

VanW27

12-14-2005, 10:59 AM

After watching sportscentre Bob McKenzie seems to think Pogge is the favorite for a position and says Price and Dubnyk will have to be great to take the spot from him.

richardn

12-14-2005, 11:20 AM

After watching sportscentre Bob McKenzie seems to think Pogge is the favorite for a position and says Price and Dubnyk will have to be great to take the spot from him.

Actually didn't he say favorite to be the starter so far.

Montréal Russians

12-14-2005, 12:41 PM

Yeah i know, but im sure pogge would have been starter last year because of his reputation in games where he faces little shots, BUT with this team i think they need a starter who faces a lot of shots like Price or Ellis.

zeke

12-14-2005, 09:08 PM

Anwser this question Mess (Since you seem to be an avid Pogge follower). How can you explain Pogges INSTANT statistical inflation once traded to the Hitmen? Did he wake up over night a better goalie?.

from what I remember, it wasn't INSTANT at all.

Pogge gradually played stronger and stronger after the trade, eventually stepping it up to a dominant level by the playoffs.

Not sure why you seem to think it was "INSTANT".

Towelie*

12-14-2005, 09:29 PM

from what I remember, it wasn't INSTANT at all.

Pogge gradually played stronger and stronger after the trade, eventually stepping it up to a dominant level by the playoffs.

Not sure why you seem to think it was "INSTANT".

I can only go by statistics, but they directly were inflated when he changed teams mid-season.

Mess

12-14-2005, 09:33 PM

Goaltending a key position for Canada

Canadian Press
12/14/2005 6:58:53 PM
VANCOUVER (CP) - Canada's starting goaltender at the 2006 world junior hockey championship will face more rubber than Jeff Glass did in 2005.

The team that won gold at the 2005 tournament gave up an average of 18 shots a game because the Canadian defence rarely let the opposition penetrate the blue-line, and when it did, it didn't get far.

That's unusual for any country at the world junior hockey championship as fortunes almost always turn on goaltending.

This edition of the Canadian junior team will be younger and will have little experience at the world under-20 level, so life will revert to normal.

Full Story : http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story.asp?ID=146985&hubName=world_jrs

Mess

12-14-2005, 09:35 PM

I can only go by statistics, but they directly were inflated when he changed teams mid-season.

But none of the matters because making this team will be based on what each goalie has done this year and how they perform at the WJC camp ..

What have you done for me lately is all the rage ..

zeke

12-14-2005, 10:16 PM

Stats can only ever look "instant".

The stats would look the same whether he gradually improved with his new team or whether he improved immediately.

Flames Draft Watcher

12-14-2005, 10:24 PM

I can only go by statistics, but they directly were inflated when he changed teams mid-season.

Maybe you should consider not relying so heavily on statistics. They really don't say much of anything, you have to watch players to get any sense of what they are about.

Freaky Habs Fan

12-15-2005, 12:04 AM

Well guys, I think it's pretty safe to say that Price and Pogge will be going to the WJC.

Pogge - no goal
Price - one goal
Dubnyk - four goals
Ellis - eight goals :eek:

Ellis is done, you can't bring someone who allowed 8 goals on 28 shots...and from the sound of it, Dubnyk isn't playing really well...

So let's see who between Price and Pogge will be the # 1

Montréal Russians

12-15-2005, 12:13 AM

I dont know, but i hope pogge chokes

VanW27

12-15-2005, 12:16 AM

I dont know, but i hope pogge chokes
Well arnt u friendly.

TheDynasty

12-15-2005, 12:17 AM

Wow, Ellis is brutal.

8 goals on 28 shots? Worst performance by any goalie at training camp. Keep him away from Team Canada please.

Montréal Russians

12-15-2005, 12:18 AM

i think its more of the goalies with the calmest minds and coolest under pressure

Rand

12-15-2005, 12:21 AM

Well arnt u friendly.

A little harsh perhaps, but I'm sure he's not the only one hoping Pogge chokes. Just as I'm sure there are more then a few hoping Price falters.

As a Leaf fan I'm not exactly wishing ill on Price per-say but you can bet I'm hoping Pogge vastly outperforms him.
Preferably on the merits of Pogge's strong play rather then any poor play from Price.

TheDynasty

12-15-2005, 12:21 AM

i think its more of the goalies with the calmest minds and coolest under pressure

Agreed.

And I think we are beginning to see a pattern like that for Ellis. The guy has been pretty brutal in clutch situations. First his utter collapse in the playoffs last year and now a terrible showing at camp. I can't help but think he'd be the wrong choice for this specific position.

Not to say anything about his future, upside, etc, etc.

cleduc

12-15-2005, 12:25 AM

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=3114c843-c83f-4d2f-bf6f-efa1dfa417de&k=40696
Pogge and Ellis have international experience at the under-18 level but more importantly they come into camp the hottest, having played well and put up solid numbers this season.

Pogge, a third-round pick of the Maple Leafs in 2004, is 19-5 for the Calgary Hitmen and leads the Western Hockey League with a 1.53 goals-against average, a .928 save percentage and six shutouts.

Ellis, a sixth-round pick of the Vancouver Canucks in 2004, is 13-9 with two shutouts, a 2.91 GAA and a .909 save percentage for the Quebec league's Shawinigan Cataractes.

"Pogge's been outstanding to date and the same with Ellis," said Sutter, who as coach of the Red Deer Rebels is familiar with Pogge. "Based on their performance to date, they'd have to be the best two coming in."

With Ellis getting lit up tonight, advantage Pogge.

banana phone

12-15-2005, 12:25 AM

It won't be Ellis, I can tell you that. :)

Hackett

12-15-2005, 12:29 AM

I want Price to be the #1 guy just cuz he's a hab but I think he is still one year away from that job.

Pogge has the edge right now but I'd slate Price at #2 at the moment

Its still a very muddy picture as bob mckenzie said though

sunb

12-15-2005, 12:36 AM

Hackett

12-15-2005, 12:40 AM

It is unfortunate Ellis had this bad game tarnish what would otherwise be a marvellous season. He has come a long way has battled through adversity before. I'm sure he is a bit upset that he didn't perform so well today but if he continues to work hard, he'll be a NHL starter someday and this won't mean too much in retrospect 10 years later. He is still a great prospect for the Canucks. Great goalies can fight past losses and troubles. If he can stay unfazed and focused, he can definitely make the transition from a prospect to a future player.

I'd agree with you but he is a vancouver goalie prospect and something always seems to happen to these guys ;)

Kidding aside, when was the last time the canucks actually drafted and groomed a goalie on their own?

I grew up in the Kirk McLean era who was picked up from New Jersey I believe. When you think of strong canuck goalies before McLean, you think of king richard and glen hanlon.... I'm thinking at least one of these two guys was drafted by vancouver

I know, I digress... but that's nothing new :)

Flames Draft Watcher

12-15-2005, 12:41 AM

After watching both scrimmages and having seen a lot of Pogge before I'd say Pogge is the #1 with Price as the #2.

Roo

12-15-2005, 10:28 AM

As a leafs fan, im hoping Pogge gets the starting job. However, if Price is indeed better, go with him. I want Canada to win, thats the #1 objective. I always like watchin underdog canadian teams =)

Freaky Habs Fan

12-15-2005, 01:36 PM

As a leafs fan, im hoping Pogge gets the starting job. However, if Price is indeed better, go with him. I want Canada to win, thats the #1 objective. I always like watchin underdog canadian teams =)

And it wouldn't be bad for you because Rask will be the starter for his country...;)

Raven25

12-15-2005, 01:38 PM

And it wouldn't be bad for you because Rask will be the starter for his country...;)
Ramo? I don't think that's a given

leaflover

12-15-2005, 03:38 PM

All that matters is the goaltender for the gold medal team has a Canadian birth certificate. ;)

Mackattack

12-15-2005, 04:28 PM

Looks like it's Price vs Pogge for the number 1 role.

I figure they won't officially name a number 1 goalie until Boxing Day and see how they do in the pre-tournament games.

It's going to be really intresting... on one hand you have Price who's bigger, the better puck handler and has the ability to steal games by himself. On the other, you have the consistent, calm, cool, and confident Pogge.

Should be interesting... I hope they pick the keeper thats right for Canada.

Scoogs

12-15-2005, 04:51 PM

I dont know, but i hope pogge chokes

Why would you say that?

Raging Bull

12-15-2005, 04:51 PM

Why would you say that?

Because he is a Leafs prospect, why else!

Volcanologist

12-15-2005, 04:58 PM

I dont know, but i hope pogge chokes

:biglaugh:

But of course you do.

Rand

12-15-2005, 05:40 PM

Why would you say that?
He's a Habs fan, and Price (a Habs prospect) is quite possibly the biggest competitor for the starting spot at the WJHC.
Add in the fact that Pogge is a Leafs prospect and most (albeit not all) Habs fans dislike the Leafs and it's not hard to understand why he'd hope Pogge chokes.

If Pogge chokes, Price may well get the starters job. That's obviously preferable from his POV.
It probably doesn't hurt that Pogge's choking may be a sign that he's not developing as well as it would appear, and that can only bode ill for the Leafs... and by turn work out nicely for the Habs in the future.

Montréal Russians

12-15-2005, 05:44 PM

Flames Draft Watcher

12-15-2005, 06:03 PM

It's going to be really intresting... on one hand you have Price who's bigger, the better puck handler and has the ability to steal games by himself. On the other, you have the consistent, calm, cool, and confident Pogge.

Should be interesting... I hope they pick the keeper thats right for Canada.

Uhhh I'd say that Pogge is easily the better puckhandler. As for size, they are both about the same. In fact Pogge is listed as 1" taller. Price is heavier but that doesn't really translate into anything.

Rand

12-15-2005, 06:25 PM

nice one rand, well those reasons but mainly a 6.5 c pot on HF? and hasnt proved anything at international level? I just dont wana make a mistake also its quite embarrassing if he loses to a 6.5 C lol.

Pogge has come along quite rapidly however. A few years ago Pogge wasn't even chosen in the WHL entry draft. He's gone from that to being Pringe George's rookie of the year, to being drafted in the 3rd round of the NHL entry draft, to potential WJHC position.

Pogge would likely have been drafted higher and recieved a correspondingly higher rating at HF had his development been predictable. He's quite literally come from no where however.

Tukka Rask is in a very similar situation to Price. A very highly touted recent draftee, that's in a tight struggle to be named Finland's starter. It's quite possible he may well back up Karri Ramo.
6.0C, drafted in the 6th round in 2004'.

Goalies are IMHO by far the hardest players to judge, and they tend to devlop at a much slower rate then do positional players.
Many a highly touted goaltender has flopped completely, and more then a few goalies that went completely undrafted have had stellar careers.

All of Pogge, Dubnyk and Ellis are 19... Price only 18 and recently drafted.
Ramo is 19, Rask 18 and like Price only recently drafted.
At their age, even a single year of development can have a dramatic impact.