Modano = Sad

I found this little story kinda funny.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=55953

I guess having a payroll of $67-million means your not spending enough?

I suppose mental Mike thinks the Stars should have a payroll in excess of $70 million to be a contender.

Also, how can Hicks think he is in a better position than Colorado?


Sad.

i know i laughed when i read that

Try losing Foote and see how Sakic reacts..

Also, how can Hicks think he is in a better position than Colorado?


A) Better set of forwards
B) Better set of d-man
C) Vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaastly better goaltender

He's just slowly setting things up for next summer when he signs with Detroit.

He's just slowly setting things up for next summer when he signs with Detroit.

He's signed through to 2005.

A) Better set of forwards
B) Better set of d-man
C) Vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaastly better goaltender

All of those but "C" are open for debate. As for "C", that's an assumption rather than a known fact. One thing we do know is that option C wasn't true last night :)

All of those but "C" are open for debate. As for "C", that's an assumption rather than a known fact. One thing we do know is that option C wasn't true last night :)

It's an "assumption" to think that a guy who could not post a win against a playoff-bound team last season will be a lot worse than a guy who holds the modern day record for save percentage and GAA?

I suppose A and B are up for debate.

A) Better set of forwards
B) Better set of d-man
C) Vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaastly better goaltender

Nah
Nah
Maybe ...we'll have to see.

I suppose A and B are up for debate.

You did that on purpose, didn't you??

Try losing Foote and see how Sakic reacts..

the point is that while Modano can feel upset that they lose their captain, his point about spending is off. The stars are spending 67 million which is more than last year....

It's an "assumption" to think that a guy who could not post a win against a playoff-bound team last season will be a lot worse than a guy who holds the modern day record for save percentage and GAA?

I suppose A and B are up for debate.

"Couldn't" is up for debate as well. The numbers between the two net minders trend the same to this point in their careers. Abby is an unknown, he's never played four NHL games in a row as of yet. So, we will just have to wait and see. When it's all said and done or even sooner you can come back here and tell me how I was dead wrong.

I suppose A and B are up for debate.

Indeed they are, and what a worthless debate that would be.

A - But to be hypocritical for a second....Avs have 4 forwards who have scored over 100 pts in a season, not including one player who has a Rocket Richard trophy. As impressive as that is, I'm really liking the flexibility of Miettinen and Kapanen adding to the Stars talent. I'll always be an Avalanche fan but I'll really like the stars this year with their conglomeration of finnish players.

B - Hatcher+Sydor >>>> Numminen at 35. The stars no longer have their stud D-man.

correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't SAUVE, our backup, beat Turco, your starter, last night?? :dunno:

Burke's Evil Spirit. No offense in the league is as explosive as the Avs right now. Especially with Ottawa missing Havlat. Dallas has a very deep group of forwards, but it isn't nearly as explosive. It is better defensively, but not offensively.

The Avs have higher tier defensemen, but less of them. While Dallas now has less tier defensemen, but more middle of the pack guys. The Avs have very good or very average defenseman. While the Stars have one elire guy in Zubov and a bunch of pretty good guys. Depending on how a team plays, you could want either group. I'd say it is a draw there.

correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't SAUVE, our backup, beat Turco, your starter, last night?? :dunno:

You kinda loose all crediability when you rely on pre-season stats.

Im not getting involved in the debate, but pre-season isnt a good way to measure rookies to proven NHLers.

It's an "assumption" to think that a guy who could not post a win against a playoff-bound team last season will be a lot worse than a guy who holds the modern day record for save percentage and GAA?


Ok four of those losses were OT losses, and most all of them came when the whole team was struggling anyway. Plus Turco's modern day GAA(And I think he only had the record for GAA not SV %) is overrated, since nobody can score in today's game anymore. There's only been one person to score 50 goals in each of the last two seasons. Plus Dallas had a very good D last year, and a good system that kept the puck away from the team with their offense. Don't get me wrong Turco is a great goalie, but there is a reason why Broduer won the Vezina instead of him last year. Abby is in a very similar position as Turco was last year, so you should know how easily he could shock people by stepping up his game with the added responsibility. Plus as far as Turco goes, one year doesn't make you a god. It's consistancy that puts you among the league's best. Just look at Theodore, and Iginla. They both had terrible years after their breakout seasons.

Basically the fact is, anybody who makes matter of fact predictions, good or bad, is ignorant to the fact that things rarely go the way they look like they will at the begining of the season.

Ok four of those losses were OT losses, and most all of them came when the whole team was struggling anyway. Plus Turco's modern day GAA(And I think he only had the record for GAA not SV %) is overrated, since nobody can score in today's game anymore. There's only been one person to score 50 goals in each of the last two seasons. Plus Dallas had a very good D last year, and a good system that kept the puck away from the team with their offense. Don't get me wrong Turco is a great goalie, but there is a reason why Broduer won the Vezina instead of him last year. Abby is in a very similar position as Turco was last year, so you should know how easily he could shock people by stepping up his game with the added responsibility. Plus as far as Turco goes, one year doesn't make you a god. It's consistancy that puts you among the league's best. Just look at Theodore, and Iginla. They both had terrible years after their breakout seasons.

Basically the fact is, anybody who makes matter of fact predictions, good or bad, is ignorant to the fact that things rarely go the way they look like they will at the begining of the season.

Three things...

Firstly, Aebischer is nowhere near as good a backup as Turco was.

Secondly, Turco's current records are a product of the system today, yes, but that's only valid if we're comparing Turco to, say, Bernie Parent. There were 29 other starters out there who could take advantage of this league, too, but only Turco got the record. As for the Vezina, maybe Brodeur did deserve it over Turco (though I believe his injury had much more to do with this), but either way both those goalies are in a league of their own, and that's nowhere near Aebischer's and Sauve's.

Thirdly, you're absolutely right about matter-of-fact predictions, but saying that "things rarely go the way they look like" to justify any statement at all is also ludicrous.


Burke's Evil Spirit. No offense in the league is as explosive as the Avs right now. Especially with Ottawa missing Havlat. Dallas has a very deep group of forwards, but it isn't nearly as explosive. It is better defensively, but not offensively.

The Avs have higher tier defensemen, but less of them. While Dallas now has less tier defensemen, but more middle of the pack guys. The Avs have very good or very average defenseman. While the Stars have one elire guy in Zubov and a bunch of pretty good guys. Depending on how a team plays, you could want either group. I'd say it is a draw there.


You are right about offensive explosiveness, but hey - look who won the Cup last season. I believe that in this league, having a deep group of defensively exceptional forwards is infinitely better than having an explosive offensive. Ditto with defense - look who Minnesota beat Vancouver and Colorado with. The up-front talent isn't cutting it any more, it's all about having defensive depth and a system that uses it well.

Three things...

Firstly, Aebischer is nowhere near as good a backup as Turco was.

Secondly, Turco's current records are a product of the system today, yes, but that's only valid if we're comparing Turco to, say, Bernie Parent. There were 29 other starters out there who could take advantage of this league, too, but only Turco got the record. As for the Vezina, maybe Brodeur did deserve it over Turco (though I believe his injury had much more to do with this), but either way both those goalies are in a league of their own, and that's nowhere near Aebischer's and Sauve's.

Thirdly, you're absolutely right about matter-of-fact predictions, but saying that "things rarely go the way they look like" to justify any statement at all is also ludicrous.

OK since it was about Turco having the best GAA ever, my point was valid, because we are comparing him to Bernie Parent and every other goaltender to play in the NHL. If the same Marty Turco plays as far back as four or five seasons ago, he doesn't have a chance at beating the record. Nobody was saying Turco doesn't deserve a lot of credit for this great feat. It just doesn't make him the best goalie in the NHL, especially since one good year doesn't mean he can sustain it. This has happened to lots of players as well as goalies. Just ask Jim Carey. Yes Brodeur is in a league of his own, Turco is not. Brodeur is in a league of his own because he has proven it many times. Turco has done it once. Not to say he won't be there in the future, because he is showing every indication he can, but to include him in that category right now just doesn't make any sense.

As for Turco being so far away from Aebischer, and him being such a better backup, lets take a look at their season's up until last year when Turco became a starter, and Abby slipped a little along with the whole team.

00-01
Turco - 26 GP - 13 W - 6 L - 1 T - 1.89 GAA - .925 Sv %
Aebischer 26 GP - 12 W - 7 L - 3T - 2.23 GAA - .903 Sv %

They both have very similar wins and loses with Turco having one more than Abby, but Turco has a better GAA and Sv %.

01-02
Turco - 31 GP - 15 W - 6 L - 2 T - 2.09 GAA - 9.21 Sv %
Aebischer - 21 GP - 13 W - 6 L - 0 T - 1.87 GAA - .931 Sv %

Turco plays ten more games then Abby this year, and only has 2 more wins then he does. Plus Abby beats him out with a better GAA and Sv %


Now this looks like they were pretty even as backups. If Turco had any edge at all, it was slight. So who's to say Aebischer can't beat Turco's record for best GAA next year, especially if our fowards have the puck the whole time. I'm not saying that Abby will be great, he might not be. All I'm saying is that to say he won't is stupid, because nobody has any idea. And what is absolutely, "ludicrous" is that you failed to miss the point of what I was saying the first time.

Nonsense

Well Joe, glad you cleared up that for those of us following an interesting discussion.

Perhaps you would care to invest a little more time to back up your opinion?


We've not seen a team in recent years with as much skill for scoring as the Avs have on their top two lines. It will be interesting to see if they are able to beat a team like the Devils. In the past, defensive teams like these have usually only had to deal with one top line at at time. The AVs have doubled that threat. Having said that, Kariya didn't do much in the playoffs last season, and he was with some fairly decent talent. Different system. Will the AVs be that much stronger than the Sens were last year? Likely... but not by much.

Having said that... most of those six guys are skill players only... in that they don't bring much of a physical presence. Might matter little of alot. I would say that's more a matter of opinion.

The STars have, I believe, an excellent, well rounded team. These seem to be the teams that go all the way.

I don't see why saying Turco is better than Abby is such gaff. Abby may eventually be a better goalie, but he's never played a season as a starter... one should judge by what's been proven don't you think?

00-01
Turco - 26 GP - 13 W - 6 L - 1 T - 1.89 GAA - .925 Sv %
Aebischer 26 GP - 12 W - 7 L - 3T - 2.23 GAA - .903 Sv %

They both have very similar wins and loses with Turco having one more than Abby, but Turco has a better GAA and Sv %.

01-02
Turco - 31 GP - 15 W - 6 L - 2 T - 2.09 GAA - 9.21 Sv %
Aebischer - 21 GP - 13 W - 6 L - 0 T - 1.87 GAA - .931 Sv %

Turco plays ten more games then Abby this year, and only has 2 more wins then he does. Plus Abby beats him out with a better GAA and Sv %

I totally agree with this post. Everyone said the same thing about Turco before last season began, and now they are saying he is this great goalie after one season of being the #1.
Abby has been a solid backup to Roy over the last 3 seasons, and I believe he is ready to take over the #1 duties, just like Turco was last year. I think Abby will suprise alot of people this year.

The stars no longer have their stud D-man.

WHAT? Did Zubov get traded? When? For who?

Zubov is our #1 and anyone that knows me, knows that I;ve been saying that for quite a time now. Hatcher never ever had a season in which he outplayed Sergei, not even last season.

That said.. the Stars Defense and the Avs Defense are about on par IMO. The Forwards could be cut into two pieces, the Avs have better top notch forwards, the Stars posses more balance, diversity and more depth.

Goalie? This is probably among the most uneven goalie comparisions that you can think of.

Anyone that thinks Aebi can do just as good, let alone provide the same value is either plain ignorant, a homer, or a wishful thinker ignoring the negatives. Turco was the Vezina runner up, (he should have won it), set records and was a Hart candidate for much of the season, obviously the Stars MVP.

I can't believe posters here at HF actualy dispute that..

Turco was the Vezina runner up, (he should have won it), set records and was a Hart candidate for much of the season, obviously the Stars MVP.


I'm not trying to start a fight but...Dont you think that the Stars defense had a huge impact on Turcos GAA mainly the physical presence of Hatcher clearing the net. Or do you think that Matty will be able to take over that job and the Robidas and Eriksine will both be able to step up eat up some of Hatchers minutes and help Turco maintain a GAA of under 1.90?

WHAT? Did Zubov get traded? When? For who?

Zubov is our #1 and anyone that knows me, knows that I;ve been saying that for quite a time now. Hatcher never ever had a season in which he outplayed Sergei, not even last season.

That said.. the Stars Defense and the Avs Defense are about on par IMO.

Zubov is not the Stars "stud d-man". Foote is the Avs "stud d-man". Stevens is the Devils 'stud d-man". The guy who shadows the opposing team's top line. I'm sorry if you didn't understand that. The stars also lost their 2nd level "stud d-man" in Sydor, so I can see how you're grasping at all the weeds in denial trying to convince me the (lone)Stars are still in the saddle.

OK since it was about Turco having the best GAA ever, my point was valid, because we are comparing him to Bernie Parent and every other goaltender to play in the NHL.


I sure as hell wasn't...


If the same Marty Turco plays as far back as four or five seasons ago, he doesn't have a chance at beating the record. Nobody was saying Turco doesn't deserve a lot of credit for this great feat. It just doesn't make him the best goalie in the NHL, especially since one good year doesn't mean he can sustain it. This has happened to lots of players as well as goalies. Just ask Jim Carey. Yes Brodeur is in a league of his own, Turco is not. Brodeur is in a league of his own because he has proven it many times. Turco has done it once. Not to say he won't be there in the future, because he is showing every indication he can, but to include him in that category right now just doesn't make any sense.


Obviously, but it's two different things to say that Turco's stock will fall, and Aebischer's stock will rise because of what Turco has done, and what Aebischer hasn't done.


00-01
Turco - 26 GP - 13 W - 6 L - 1 T - 1.89 GAA - .925 Sv %
Aebischer 26 GP - 12 W - 7 L - 3T - 2.23 GAA - .903 Sv %

They both have very similar wins and loses with Turco having one more than Abby, but Turco has a better GAA and Sv %.

01-02
Turco - 31 GP - 15 W - 6 L - 2 T - 2.09 GAA - 9.21 Sv %
Aebischer - 21 GP - 13 W - 6 L - 0 T - 1.87 GAA - .931 Sv %

Turco plays ten more games then Abby this year, and only has 2 more wins then he does. Plus Abby beats him out with a better GAA and Sv %


10 more games, 2 more wins on a team that missed the playoffs. Dallas in 2001-2002 got Ed Belfour to go 21-27 with an .895 Sv% and a 2.34 GAA. Comparing goaltender statistics on those two teams is irrelevent because Dallas sucked as a team, and Colorado didn't.



Now this looks like they were pretty even as backups. If Turco had any edge at all, it was slight. So who's to say Aebischer can't beat Turco's record for best GAA next year, especially if our fowards have the puck the whole time. I'm not saying that Abby will be great, he might not be. All I'm saying is that to say he won't is stupid, because nobody has any idea. And what is absolutely, "ludicrous" is that you failed to miss the point of what I was saying the first time.

What, that on-paper predictions are stupid? Well then, I guess there's no point in talking hockey until June :rolleyes:

NonsenseWhy?

Now don't go hurting your fingers by typing more than a one word reply. I thought BES made some excellent points about defense winning over offense.

Uhh...hello?

Just because the Avalanche have the best group of forwards since the Penguins won the cup, doesn't mean they don't have defense.

In fact, they have one of the best groups of defense in the entire league.

Morris - Foote
Blake - Liles
Skrastins - Skoula

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't use the "no-defense" solution to criticise the Avs, because there is defense.

Uhh...hello?

Just because the Avalanche have the best group of forwards since the Penguins won the cup, doesn't mean they don't have defense.

In fact, they have one of the best groups of defense in the entire league.

Morris - Foote
Blake - Liles
Skrastins - Skoula

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't use the "no-defense" solution to criticise the Avs, because there is defense.
Are you talking to me? Because if you are, I wasn't saying the Avs have no defense, I was responding to the poster who 'took the time' to dispute BES' comments with the "nonsense" rebuttal.

I think the Avs do have an excellent all-around-team this season except the obvious goaltending questions but that'll be addressed if/when it is necessary.

At the end of it all, I still think that it'll be the performance of the Avs' D that will carry them to the road of the Cup... not their O.

Zubov is not the Stars "stud d-man". Foote is the Avs "stud d-man". Stevens is the Devils 'stud d-man". The guy who shadows the opposing team's top line. I'm sorry if you didn't understand that. The stars also lost their 2nd level "stud d-man" in Sydor, so I can see how you're grasping at all the weeds in denial trying to convince me the (lone)Stars are still in the saddle.

Much as it pains me to say it, Modano=God is right. Zubov has always been the best defenseman on the Stars and still is. Hatcher was more the heart and soul kind of guy, but Zubov is loads better than Hatcher. Hatcher's game is pretty limited and I personally don't place him with Foote or Stevens defensively. Zubov is the key member of the Stars defense IMO.

Are you talking to me? Because if you are, I wasn't saying the Avs have no defense, I was responding to the poster who 'took the time' to dispute BES' comments with the "nonsense" rebuttal.

No, I was posting in general that the Avalanche defense is very good.

I think the Avs do have an excellent all-around-team this season except the obvious goaltending questions but that'll be addressed if/when it is necessary.

Yep. As of now the offense has no problem, nor does the defense, but the goaltending is 50/50. Could be Brodeur or could be Flarhety (sp).

At the end of it all, I still think that it'll be the performance of the Avs' D that will carry them to the road of the Cup... not their O.

I actually think the offense will carry the Avs through the playoffs. Sounds weird, doesn't it? I think it will be enough, and if needed, the defense certainly has the ability to step up.

Uhh...hello?

Just because the Avalanche have the best group of forwards since the Penguins won the cup, doesn't mean they don't have defense.

In fact, they have one of the best groups of defense in the entire league.

Morris - Foote
Blake - Liles
Skrastins - Skoula

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't use the "no-defense" solution to criticise the Avs, because there is defense.

They have a good group of names on paper, but outside of Foote and Skrastins (based on his history with Nashville), the other guys aren't all that great in their own zone. Blake has always been average to mediocre in his own zone. Morris still makes youthful mistakes and is one of the easier guys to beat 1v1 that I've seen in the league, but he is fairly solid. Liles' strength isn't tough defensive zone play either (not saying he's bad in his own zone either; just that it isn't his strength). Skoula? Well, no comment. Combine that with Granato's offense from the blueline system from last year and I think it's quite valid to question the Avalanche defense at this point and time. Which guys are going to sacrifice offense to stay back and help out the goalies? And will Skrastins fit in? Defensively, Foote is the only one that's above reproach on the blueline. The Avs do have a very talented group of offensive-minded defensemen, but how well they will commit to playing a more conservative style (if they're even asked to do so) is really unknown. I think this group of D is rather suspect defensively. But, that doesn't mean they won't play well either. Just that I'd like to see them put in a month of work before I give them any concrete praise or criticism.

Hm...
In the Avs 2 previous cups they have been carried by their Offense and Roy...

With a vastly improved offense and an improved D (depending on Liles) and a goalie that can perform anywhere between "ok" and "very good"...
I think they've got all the ingredients one needs for a cup...

People shouldn't forget that Reinprecht and Drury have been replaced with people MUCH more experienced...

The only rookie playing in an important position is Liles... and he's gonna be 6th D...

Blake should rebound from a sub-par year...

Skoula couldn't possible get worse ;)
plus... he's got poise with the puck :D



er... i lost my train of thought...

Three things...

Firstly, Aebischer is nowhere near as good a backup as Turco was.
.

he never had to be... roy didn't force abby to *pick up the slack* like belfour forced turco..

A) Better set of forwards
B) Better set of d-man
C) Vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaastly better goaltender

a.) Better depth but Colorado has a far superior top 6.
b.) no.. I'd take Foote/Blake/Skrastins/Skoula/Morris/? over Numminen/Boucher/Zubov/Matvichuk and others
c.) yes.. PL will make a move if his goaltending falters to change this though.

If you want to look at Abby's 2nd backup year and compare it to Turco's then Abby is right there. You can say Turco is better and have a relatively safe arguement but the truth of the matter is goalies as starters and goalies as backups are two totally different situations. So a blanket statement that Turco is better may not be true when it's all said and done. Abby is an unknown. Theodore had a bad sophomore season, Nabakov had a horrid year last year and I know there are excuses for each of them. But it's not out of the question that Turco, too could have a less than stellar year. Right now Turco is more proven and proven in a big way however Abby is unproven and that's really all that can be said about him.

Goalie? This is probably among the most uneven goalie comparisions that you can think of.

Anyone that thinks Aebi can do just as good, let alone provide the same value is either plain ignorant, a homer, or a wishful thinker ignoring the negatives. Turco was the Vezina runner up, (he should have won it), set records and was a Hart candidate for much of the season, obviously the Stars MVP.

I can't believe posters here at HF actualy dispute that..

Why is it so impossible that Abby could have a great season like Turco. Weren't people saying the same thing about Turco last year that they were about Abby this year. What makes you say he can't? I'd like to know. Aebischer is a question mark. Exactly like Turco was last year, and every goaltender is, when he becomes a starter. He could be great, he could be good, he could be terrible. So since he is a question mark, nobody knows how good he can be. Why don't you guys get this. Plus since he has been a very good, backup that has shown flashes of brilliance, he has a better chance at being good than bad. Instead of calling people ignorant, wishfull thinking homer's, maybe you should look more carefully at the situation. You can't say Aebischer can't do just as well, because he hasn't been give the chance yet. Turco has.

Obviously, but it's two different things to say that Turco's stock will fall, and Aebischer's stock will rise because of what Turco has done, and what Aebischer hasn't done.



10 more games, 2 more wins on a team that missed the playoffs. Dallas in 2001-2002 got Ed Belfour to go 21-27 with an .895 Sv% and a 2.34 GAA. Comparing goaltender statistics on those two teams is irrelevent because Dallas sucked as a team, and Colorado didn't.



What, that on-paper predictions are stupid? Well then, I guess there's no point in talking hockey until June :rolleyes:


Actually I wasn't saying Turco's stock WILL fall and that Aebischer's WILL rise. I was saying these things could happen. You were the one talking about the WILL's and WONT's.


Secondly, your reaching now, and you missed the point again. You said Turco was a much better backup. I showed you the numbers that showed he wasn't, and you still didn't see it.


Thirdly, once again, nobody ever said on paper prediction's are stupid. They are exactly that, predictions, and yes they don't always mean things will happen that way. Which brings us to my pont for the umteenth time. Predictions are prediction, there are no WILL's and WONT's at the begining of the season. And if you don't want to talk until June that would be fine by me.

:handclap:

Why is it so impossible that Abby could have a great season like Turco. Weren't people saying the same thing about Turco last year that they were about Abby this year. What makes you say he can't? I'd like to know. Aebischer is a question mark. Exactly like Turco was last year, and every goaltender is, when he becomes a starter. He could be great, he could be good, he could be terrible. So since he is a question mark, nobody knows how good he can be. Why don't you guys get this.

It's not exactly like Aebischer is coming out of this (http://pw1.netcom.com/~jeepers/CJBhome.html).

Perhaps some people simply don't think Aebsicher can cut it after having seen him play the last couple of years.

It's not exactly like Aebischer is coming out of this (http://pw1.netcom.com/~jeepers/CJBhome.html).

Perhaps some people simply don't think Aebsicher can cut it after having seen him play the last couple of years.

I think the reality is much more simple. Who are the ones who talk nonstop about Aebischers supposed future failure? For the most part it is the fans of Vancouver and Dallas, and a few Ducks fans. It is almost as if they are worried about something. Detroitfans on the other hand are pretty relaxed about it.

So in essence the talk is just a homer way of building their own teams chances. Because since it is inevitable that Aebischer is such a failure this season that he won't even be a backup in the Swiss league next year, it must mean Dallas and Vancouver have a pretty good chance in the West, eh?

I think the reality is much more simple. Who are the ones who talk nonstop about Aebischers supposed future failure? For the most part it is the fans of Vancouver and Dallas, and a few Ducks fans.

You're forgetting a bunch of Avalanche fans (like myself) who are seriously hoping that PL won't be going into the playoffs with Aebi, regardless weather he performs great during the regular season or not.

a.) Better depth but Colorado has a far superior top 6.
b.) no.. I'd take Foote/Blake/Skrastins/Skoula/Morris/? over Numminen/Boucher/Zubov/Matvichuk and others
c.) yes.. PL will make a move if his goaltending falters to change this though.

a) Avs have the best top 6 in the NHL, but hardly far superior compared with either the Sens or Stars. The depth of the Avs was average, but got rather thin with Aubin and Wilsie gone.

b) Your call.. it's basicly a draw. I won't say either is better since both D has gone under some face lifts over the past 2 seasons. We'll see how they react. But I would put the Stars top 4 up against anyone's.

c) Hell yeah, most Avs fans base their chances on a potential trade for a netminder, but as of right now, they lack it and their goalie situation should be ranked way below the remaining cup contenders such as Ottawa (Lalime), Detroit (Hasek), Jersey (Brodeur) and Dallas (Turco).

I think the reality is much more simple. Who are the ones who talk nonstop about Aebischers supposed future failure? For the most part it is the fans of Vancouver and Dallas, and a few Ducks fans. It is almost as if they are worried about something. Detroitfans on the other hand are pretty relaxed about it.

So in essence the talk is just a homer way of building their own teams chances. Because since it is inevitable that Aebischer is such a failure this season that he won't even be a backup in the Swiss league next year, it must mean Dallas and Vancouver have a pretty good chance in the West, eh?

What a lame comment. Yeah, that's right... any comment on an unproven #1 goalie must just be about the other team. :rolleyes: No one's calling Abby crappy here... they have said that Turco is likely better or at the least a proven #1, or that one should wait several months before opining on Ab's quality as a full time net minder.

And you call other posters homers? Ha!

a) Avs have the best top 6 in the NHL, but hardly far superior compared with either the Sens or Stars. The depth of the Avs was average, but got rather thin with Aubin and Wilsie gone.

b) Your call.. it's basicly a draw. I won't say either is better since both D has gone under some face lifts over the past 2 seasons. We'll see how they react. But I would put the Stars top 4 up against anyone's.

c) Hell yeah, most Avs fans base their chances on a potential trade for a netminder, but as of right now, they lack it and their goalie situation should be ranked way below the remaining cup contenders such as Ottawa (Lalime), Detroit (Hasek), Jersey (Brodeur) and Dallas (Turco).

The Avs depth didn't really get affected that much at all with the loses of Aubin and Wilsie. They were both going to play in Hershey anyway, and probably weren't even going to be the first call up. It hurt the Bears more than anything.

As for the Avs goaltending situation, your right, it should be ranked below, Ottawa, Detroit, Jersey, and Dallas, as well as a handfull of other teams, because Aebischer is unproven. But anything can happen, and that includes playing better than most of those guys.

What a lame comment. Yeah, that's right... any comment on an unproven #1 goalie must just be about the other team. :rolleyes: No one's calling Abby crappy here... they have said that Turco is likely better or at the least a proven #1, or that one should wait several months before opining on Ab's quality as a full time net minder.

And you call other posters homers? Ha!

No one is calling Abby crappy? What rock have you been hiding under? I read constant "predictions" (read: wishes) that he will fail this season. Fans of competitors call him Swiss miss and even more hilarious "career backup" (with Sauve being a "career minor leaguer", mind you).

Of course you have to wait and see how he performs. That is the point. Thus all the "Colorado won't get anywhere in the playoffs because of their goaltending" comments are nonsense. And the fans of Colorados rivals are the most prolific in spreading that nonsense.

As for me being a homer, the only thing I have said about Aebischer is that he might work out and he might not. Very homer-ish stuff, eh?

You're forgetting a bunch of Avalanche fans (like myself) who are seriously hoping that PL won't be going into the playoffs with Aebi, regardless weather he performs great during the regular season or not.

I'm not so sure we should go into the playoffs with Abby even if he has a good year either. How often do you see first year starters take their teams to the cup. Almost never. Some have come close, guys like Boucher and Theodore, but only a few have actually gotton the job done. Roy of course immediatley comes to mind, and I think maybe Furh but I'm not sure. But that's different than what a couple of these other guys are saying, which is Aebischer WON'T play well, and that there's no way he could even come close to having a similar season as Turco's first year last year.

I'm not so sure we should go into the playoffs with Abby even if he has a good year either. How often do you see first year starters take their teams to the cup. Almost never. Some have come close, guys like Boucher and Theodore, but only a few have actually gotton the job done. Roy of course immediatley comes to mind, and I think maybe Furh but I'm not sure. But that's different than what a couple of these other guys are saying, which is Aebischer WON'T play well, and that there's no way he could even come close to having a similar season as Turco's first year last year.

Most of the top teams go into the playoffs with experience goalies. So it means experienced goalies have the biggest chance of playoff success. There are plenty of goalies that have played really well their first year in the (NHL) playoffs. Hedberg, Giguere, Roy, Burke etc. And none of them had a great team in front of them. New goalies that succeed in the playoff pretty much always have to do it with a semi-poor team in front of them.

Of course this doesn't mean that most inexperienced goalies would do great with a great team in front of them, but their chances certainly improve. I think it is all individual. Some players are good competitors. I am sure the organizations know how the players responded in other playoff situations.

No one is calling Abby crappy? What rock have you been hiding under? I read constant "predictions" (read: wishes) that he will fail this season. Fans of competitors call him Swiss miss and even more hilarious "career backup" (with Sauve being a "career minor leaguer", mind you).

Of course you have to wait and see how he performs. That is the point. Thus all the "Colorado won't get anywhere in the playoffs because of their goaltending" comments are nonsense. And the fans of Colorados rivals are the most prolific in spreading that nonsense.

As for me being a homer, the only thing I have said about Aebischer is that he might work out and he might not. Very homer-ish stuff, eh?

I was talking about this thread. I thought that's what the discussion was about.

Seems like there are many people who feel that goalies who haven't played a full season as a #, or haven't played in the playoffs have big question marks around their ability. Until this year, the Avs have never had to answer those questions, and infact they have often been the ones asking them. It's a fair question, and if you're talking about how a team may play in the future, then you take things like that into concideration.

Look, there are dorks out there who call players names, but they have no value in an intelligent discussion. Personally I don't concider trolls to hold valid opinions.

What makes your previous post homerish, was your suggestion that people who questioned the goaltending of the Avalanch were only doing so to make their own teams seem better... as if the question couldn't possibly have any merit.

Like it or not, there are valid question marks about your goal tending. If the Caps suck this year, I wouldn't be suprised to see Kolzig end up on your team... unless Ab proves he is able to steal some games. I say that because I am GUESSING that it may be Forsbergs last season, and who knows where Kariya and Selanne will go, that the team expects to win at all costs. If your team is so loaded with talent, why skimp on the most important area? Is PL willing to risk a goal tender that struggles in his first playoffs? Personally I doubt it.

This opinion has nothing to do with the team I support, and is an interesting part of what makes team sports so great.

quat i think freudian is fed up with the other posts about Aeb, not necessarily yours or the ones on this thread. I've read that Aebischer wouldn't even garner a 9th rounder, etc. Its annoying, and very unrealistic. Aeb. has been a very good backup for the Avs and I fully expect him to have a good year, not necessarily spectacular like Turco, but a good year nonetheless. This preseason the D, for the Avs has been the biggest question for them, not the offense or goaltending.

As for comments about the Avs forward depth this year, I have to say that this is one of the deepest teams in a long time for the Avs. Several prospects have come of age, and with Nikolishin and Battaglia on the third line as well as Worrel being added to the fourth line makes this a very strong team. I say that many people do not know how deep this team is, simply b/c it is hard to follow a teams prospects year-to-year. I completely understand that, and I'll simply point out the flaws. There is a reason why there are 4 rookies on this team this year ;).

I was talking about this thread. I thought that's what the discussion was about.

Seems like there are many people who feel that goalies who haven't played a full season as a #, or haven't played in the playoffs have big question marks around their ability. Until this year, the Avs have never had to answer those questions, and infact they have often been the ones asking them. It's a fair question, and if you're talking about how a team may play in the future, then you take things like that into concideration.

Look, there are dorks out there who call players names, but they have no value in an intelligent discussion. Personally I don't concider trolls to hold valid opinions.

What makes your previous post homerish, was your suggestion that people who questioned the goaltending of the Avalanch were only doing so to make their own teams seem better... as if the question couldn't possibly have any merit.

Like it or not, there are valid question marks about your goal tending. If the Caps suck this year, I wouldn't be suprised to see Kolzig end up on your team... unless Ab proves he is able to steal some games. I say that because I am GUESSING that it may be Forsbergs last season, and who knows where Kariya and Selanne will go, that the team expects to win at all costs. If your team is so loaded with talent, why skimp on the most important area? Is PL willing to risk a goal tender that struggles in his first playoffs? Personally I doubt it.

This opinion has nothing to do with the team I support, and is an interesting part of what makes team sports so great.

Everyone agrees he is unproven. The #1 position is his to claim (or lose). I have no problem with people saying he hasn't proved himself yet. I do have a problem with the "he will fail" "avs will have to trade for a goalie" etc. None of us know anything about that right now. The Avs have enough confidence in him to give him the shot.

So as long as people call things by it's real name I have no problem at all. The Avs goalkeeping is unproven and unknown. It is not horrible and doomed to failure. In six months we know much better.

The interesting hypothetical situation is if he has a good season but not great. Do the Avs then trade for a goalie. If he is great during regular season he will be a playoff goalie. If he is horrible he won't. But what if he is somewhere in between?:)

Everyone agrees he is unproven. The #1 position is his to claim (or lose). I have no problem with people saying he hasn't proved himself yet. I do have a problem with the "he will fail" "avs will have to trade for a goalie" etc. None of us know anything about that right now. The Avs have enough confidence in him to give him the shot.

So as long as people call things by it's real name I have no problem at all. The Avs goalkeeping is unproven and unknown. It is not horrible and doomed to failure. In six months we know much better.

The interesting hypothetical situation is if he has a good season but not great. Do the Avs then trade for a goalie. If he is great during regular season he will be a playoff goalie. If he is horrible he won't. But what if he is somewhere in between?:)

Well said :handclap:

There's no problem having what the Avs have at this time, and it's interesting to see how different fans rate their chances this season. Completely agree with your last point, and that's what makes a GM's job so difficult. ie accurately assessing (?) the talent on a team. The club (rightfully so), has high expectations to go all the way this year, and I'm certain that comes with a lot of pressure. Clubs like St.Louis and San Jose have struggled under that expectation, while the Devils generally seem to do just fine... Should be a great season.

The depth of the Avs forwards are average ? Now they're thin because they lost Willsie & Aubin ? :joker: .


I'd put Battaglia Nikolishin and Svatos up against that finnish line that you claim to be so great ! Young , Arnott and Turgeon are all has beens .

While I think the Avs 3rd is decent to average, it won't come close to 3rd lines like those from the Sens, Stars or even Islanders. Same goes for their 4th line, Avs have rather average checking lines.

I won't go to your has been comment either, I'll just give it a simple :joker:

While I think the Avs 3rd is decent to average, it won't come close to 3rd lines like those from the Sens, Stars or even Islanders. Same goes for their 4th line, Avs have rather average checking lines.

I won't go to your has been comment either, I'll just give it a simple :joker:

While I can see the debate of scoring depth for the Avalanche in their 3rd and 4th lines, I truely don't see this lack of checking lines you mention. The Avalanche have some forechecking forwards in the 3rd and 4th lines.

Worrell is a huge body checker, Cummins, Hahl, Hinote and a name you'll soon begin to recognize Cody McCormick. All of those forwards check, and check aggressively. I would rate the Avalanche checking lines as above average easily.

I won't go to your has been comment either, I'll just give it a simple :joker:

I'll agree with this

But not with this:

While I think the Avs 3rd is decent to average..... Avs have rather average checking lines.

They are above average, although, they most likely are not on par with Ottawa. We will see about Dallas and NYI ;)

I'll agree with this

But not with this:



They are above average, although, they most likely are not on par with Ottawa. We will see about Dallas and NYI ;)

You do know the Stars and the Isles had the league's top 3rd line last season?

Anyway, good luck outbeating these:

Brenden Morrow/Antti Miettinen - Niko Kapanen - Jere Lehtinen
Steve Ott - Stu Barnes - Rob DiMaio

You do know the Stars and the Isles had the league's top 3rd line last season?

Anyway, good luck outbeating these:

Brenden Morrow/Antti Miettinen - Niko Kapanen - Jere Lehtinen
Steve Ott - Stu Barnes - Rob DiMaio

Since when was Jere Lehtinen playing on the third line. Hasn't he always played on the top two lines, mostly Modano's.

Since when was Jere Lehtinen playing on the third line. Hasn't he always played on the top two lines, mostly Modano's.

Shows how much you know, Lehtinen was the 3rd line's right winger for the entire season. He saw time with Modano in the past though.

Shows how much you know, Lehtinen was the 3rd line's right winger for the entire season. He saw time with Modano in the past though.

Shows how much I know? I ask you a question, and you answer it by saying, shows how much you know. God forbid I would expect a player the calibre of Lehtinen to be playing on one of the top two lines, especially since he has for the past few seasons.

Shows how much I know? I ask you a question, and you answer it by saying, shows how much you know.

Wouldn't worry about it too much; M=G thinks he knows more than he does anyway, in my not-so-humble opinion.

Thanks for this sweet opportunity to absolve myself of having to agree with M=G earlier in this thread. I feel much better now.

Wouldn't worry about it too much; M=G thinks he knows more than he does anyway, in my not-so-humble opinion.

Thanks for this sweet opportunity to absolve myself of having to agree with M=G earlier in this thread. I feel much better now.


Don't be too angry,
he can't help himself, he's an Ajax fan :D

Don't be too angry,
he can't help himself, he's an Ajax fan :D

Hey.. not nice! :p

Hey.. not nice! :p

Not nice...

but true! :joker:




(Sforza PSV!)

Okay I follow both teams closely, and now that Roy is gone root for both of them. I think most would have a hard time arguing that Dallas and Colorado are the class of the West.

Forwards - Colorado has the best top 6 in the NHL, but Dallas has the deepest group top to bottom. They SPANKED the Ducks tonight in the opener, and Stu Barnes was the top scorer. They lost Lets in the first period, and didn't miss a beat. Dallas is DEEP on the front.

Defense - I honestly think Dallas will be a better team without Hatcher. The guy was way too slow and gave up LOTS of breakaways. Zubov and Numinen are magic on the ice together. Boucher and Matvichuk can more than make up for the physical presence and are better offensively. Dallas defense is very offensive minded. Zubov had a goal and assist in tonights game; and now, Dallas has one hell of a transition game. Rhobidas may be small, but there is a LOT of fight in that little dog. Foote and Blake are pretty good. The Skrats guy I can't pronounce was an excellent pickup. I think the defenses are a wash at this time, since both have undergone drastic changes.

Goaltender. Marty is just better at this point than Abby is. Might change, but Mary has been awesome at EVERY level he has played. I think Suave is Colorado's future in goal, but Abby will be serviceable.

I expect these two to meet in the WCF's if Colorado straightens out its goaltending.

Okay I follow both teams closely, and now that Roy is gone root for both of them. I think most would have a hard time arguing that Dallas and Colorado are the class of the West.

Forwards - Colorado has the best top 6 in the NHL, but Dallas has the deepest group top to bottom. They SPANKED the Ducks tonight in the opener, and Stu Barnes was the top scorer. They lost Lets in the first period, and didn't miss a beat. Dallas is DEEP on the front.

Defense - I honestly think Dallas will be a better team without Hatcher. The guy was way too slow and gave up LOTS of breakaways. Zubov and Numinen are magic on the ice together. Boucher and Matvichuk can more than make up for the physical presence and are better offensively. Dallas defense is very offensive minded. Zubov had a goal and assist in tonights game; and now, Dallas has one hell of a transition game. Rhobidas may be small, but there is a LOT of fight in that little dog. Foote and Blake are pretty good. The Skrats guy I can't pronounce was an excellent pickup. I think the defenses are a wash at this time, since both have undergone drastic changes.

Goaltender. Marty is just better at this point than Abby is. Might change, but Mary has been awesome at EVERY level he has played. I think Suave is Colorado's future in goal, but Abby will be serviceable.

I expect these two to meet in the WCF's if Colorado straightens out its goaltending.


Slow maybe. But I got to disagree, in no way is Dallas a better team without Hatcher. He was their stud defensman for a reason. Stud defensman are the ones who get all the minutes, and play against the top lines, and they will sorely miss him. Especially his toughness. Dallas wil be a lot easier to play against now. Not saying they will be easy, but easier physically, especially for guys like Forsberg.

Slow maybe. But I got to disagree, in no way is Dallas a better team without Hatcher. He was their stud defensman for a reason. Stud defensman are the ones who get all the minutes, and play against the top lines, and they will sorely miss him. Especially his toughness. Dallas wil be a lot easier to play against now. Not saying they will be easy, but easier physically, especially for guys like Forsberg.

Don't agree; they currently have Boucher and Matvichuk on the same pairing and that isn't easier in terms of physicality, especially for Forsberg who has a history with both Boucher and Matvichuk.

Don't agree; they currently have Boucher and Matvichuk on the same pairing and that isn't easier in terms of physicality, especially for Forsberg who has a history with both Boucher and Matvichuk.

They had both of those guys last year. Whats tougher, Boucher and Matvichuk? Or Boucher, Matvichuk, AND Hatcher.

They had both of those guys last year. Whats tougher, Boucher and Matvichuk? Or Boucher, Matvichuk, AND Hatcher.

That doesn't make sense. There weren't three guys on defense against Forsberg; we're talking about pairings here. Historically, it's always been Hatcher-Matvichuk. But, Boucher gives up nothing to Hatcher except in cheapshots and fighting (Boucher is a decent fighter, but Hatcher is better). Boucher is a better open ice hitter and is just as physical along the boards as Hatcher. Boucher also moves his feet better than Hatcher IMO. I don't think a Boucher-Matvichuk pairing is an easy pair to play against at all, especially in a physical sense. Hatcher gets way too much credit as it is; I don't see much difference between a Boucher-Matvichuk pairing and the old Hatcher-Matvichuk pairing, especially in terms of physical play against Forsberg. They will (and have already) struggled against the speedier players, but Forsberg's game isn't speed. Yes, losingHatcher takes something away from the team, but Boucher is a very capable player in Hatcher's position. If you're talking overall depth, fine. But as far as a shutdown physical pairing, Boucher-Matvichuk is a very capable pair that will punish people.

That doesn't make sense. There weren't three guys on defense against Forsberg; we're talking about pairings here. Historically, it's always been Hatcher-Matvichuk. But, Boucher gives up nothing to Hatcher except in cheapshots and fighting (Boucher is a decent fighter, but Hatcher is better). Boucher is a better open ice hitter and is just as physical along the boards as Hatcher. Boucher also moves his feet better than Hatcher IMO. I don't think a Boucher-Matvichuk pairing is an easy pair to play against at all, especially in a physical sense. Hatcher gets way too much credit as it is; I don't see much difference between a Boucher-Matvichuk pairing and the old Hatcher-Matvichuk pairing, especially in terms of physical play against Forsberg. They will (and have already) struggled against the speedier players, but Forsberg's game isn't speed. Yes, losingHatcher takes something away from the team, but Boucher is a very capable player in Hatcher's position. If you're talking overall depth, fine. But as far as a shutdown physical pairing, Boucher-Matvichuk is a very capable pair that will punish people.

I wasn't talking aobut pairings, I was talking about the defense as a whole. Your not going to be able to play one pairing against a line for the whole game anyway, especially if you're the visiting team. There might not be a huge gap in difference between the two pairings you mentioned, but there is one in my opinion. No matter how you look at it, Dallas's D is less scary than it was last year.

Also as a side not, when Forsberg is really on his game, speed is a big part of it. His father went against the norm in Seeden when he coached, and he coached more on skating than on puck control. Naslund benefited as well.

Boucher is an average hitter , he's not even close to Hatcher in that department . Boucher isn't intimidating like Hatcher , nor will he ever be . The Stars will miss Hatcher when it comes to the playoffs . Get over it .

You need to watch the Stars more because you're totally out-to-lunch if you think Boucher is an average hitter. And what made Hatcher so intimidating? His unpredictable brain cramps did. Boucher isn't a ticking cheapshot waiting to go off; I already said as much.

There's nothing for me to get over but your ignorance regarding Boucher. Learn something about which you speak before you speak about it.

I wasn't talking aobut pairings, I was talking about the defense as a whole. Your not going to be able to play one pairing against a line for the whole game anyway, especially if you're the visiting team. There might not be a huge gap in difference between the two pairings you mentioned, but there is one in my opinion. No matter how you look at it, Dallas's D is less scary than it was last year.

Also as a side not, when Forsberg is really on his game, speed is a big part of it. His father went against the norm in Seeden when he coached, and he coached more on skating than on puck control. Naslund benefited as well.

As I said, I understand if you're talking about overall depth. I can live with that. But, for one shutdown pairing, the Stars aren't going to miss much. Boucher-Matvichuk up against Forsberg and Zubov-Numminen up against Sakic is a match-up I'd be thrilled with if I were the Stars.

As for Forsberg's "speed", he's not really speedy, he's more a powerful skater than a fast skater and uses quickness in tight spots to create. Unless there's an odd man rush he's leading, he tends to go behind the net and work the corners and boards, at least to get the puck in the first place. And as he doesn't avoid contact much, he will run into Boucher-Matvichuk just like he did Hatcher-Matvichuk and Boucher-Norstrom in the past. That was my most of my point about Forsberg's speed. The other part of it is that Forsberg slows the play up most of the time; so, I really wouldn't call speed a part of Forsberg's game personally. Even if he has it, his style doesn't use it much and so it's rarely on display.

As for Forsberg's "speed", he's not really speedy, he's more a powerful skater than a fast skater and uses quickness in tight spots to create. Unless there's an odd man rush he's leading, he tends to go behind the net and work the corners and boards, at least to get the puck in the first place. And as he doesn't avoid contact much, he will run into Boucher-Matvichuk just like he did Hatcher-Matvichuk and Boucher-Norstrom in the past. That was my most of my point about Forsberg's speed. The other part of it is that Forsberg slows the play up most of the time; so, I really wouldn't call speed a part of Forsberg's game personally. Even if he has it, his style doesn't use it much and so it's rarely on display.

Just adding onto your point...

While Peter Forsberg has shown in his younger days that he does indeed have speed and acceleration, he tends to use his reading of the play in the neutral more so to cause turnovers and the like. For example, his OT winner against Philadelphia was after he picked off a pass and went in alone to beat the goaltender. His speed in such a situation is not that much of an issue considering all the opponent's players are caught flat-footed going forward.

Both of Milan Hejduk and Alex Tanguay have more outright speed than Forsberg, in my humble opinion.

As I said, I understand if you're talking about overall depth. I can live with that. But, for one shutdown pairing, the Stars aren't going to miss much. Boucher-Matvichuk up against Forsberg and Zubov-Numminen up against Sakic is a match-up I'd be thrilled with if I were the Stars.

As an Avalanche fan, I would certainly hope that we could get Forsberg out against Zubov-Numminen instead of Boucher-Matvichuk. Both Boucher *and* Matvichuk have historically gotten under Foppa's skin enough that I would give the edge to the Stars in such a match-up. On a Zubov-Numminen pairing against The Burnaby Sauna line, I would love to see Sakic and Kariya penetrate the right side defense, usually Numminen. Of course, this is just when entering the zone.

I personally think the Stars' defensive pairings match-up better with the Avalanche forwards than the Red Wings. Lidstrom-Hatcher is a downright scary tandem, but I am not too big a fan of Hatcher in the playoffs and if Forsberg's line can get around him, odd-man rushes against *any* defenseman, including Lidstrom, are likely scoring chances. The second pairing of Chelios-Fischer does not intimidate me at all, and I would go so far as to say that Sakic's line could tear them apart, footspeed wise.

As I said, I understand if you're talking about overall depth. I can live with that. But, for one shutdown pairing, the Stars aren't going to miss much. Boucher-Matvichuk up against Forsberg and Zubov-Numminen up against Sakic is a match-up I'd be thrilled with if I were the Stars.

As for Forsberg's "speed", he's not really speedy, he's more a powerful skater than a fast skater and uses quickness in tight spots to create. Unless there's an odd man rush he's leading, he tends to go behind the net and work the corners and boards, at least to get the puck in the first place. And as he doesn't avoid contact much, he will run into Boucher-Matvichuk just like he did Hatcher-Matvichuk and Boucher-Norstrom in the past. That was my most of my point about Forsberg's speed. The other part of it is that Forsberg slows the play up most of the time; so, I really wouldn't call speed a part of Forsberg's game personally. Even if he has it, his style doesn't use it much and so it's rarely on display.

I'm going to have to disagree with you guys here. Forsberg may not use his outright speed too much, especially when playing center. He likes to control the pace when he has the puck, slow it down and then speed it up and catch everybody on their heels. But he has it locked away if he needs it. When he played left wing for the first part of the year, he would pick up the puck in his own end and just fly down the left boards, backing off the defense so much because they had to respect his speed. He would fly into the zone and then cut across the blueline, and the D would be almost at the goal crease, they were respecting his speed so much. After that of course, no one knew what he was going to do. Forsberg may better better overall as a pivot, but nothing was better in my opinion than seeing him fly into the zone, and cut across the blueline and have no idea what was coming up next, except that it was going to be brialliant.

I'm going to have to disagree with you guys here. Forsberg may not use his outright speed too much, especially when playing center. He likes to control the pace when he has the puck, slow it down and then speed it up and catch everybody on their heels. But he has it locked away if he needs it. When he played left wing for the first part of the year, he would pick up the puck in his own end and just fly down the left boards, backing off the defense so much because they had to respect his speed. He would fly into the zone and then cut across the blueline, and the D would be almost at the goal crease, they were respecting his speed so much. After that of course, no one knew what he was going to do. Forsberg may better better overall as a pivot, but nothing was better in my opinion than seeing him fly into the zone, and cut across the blueline and have no idea what was coming up next, except that it was going to be brialliant.

Forsberg was a one-way player on LW; it's easier to look faster when you don't play much defense (in Forsberg's case, I don't think he really knew where to be when on the wing; more a matter of lack of adjustment than lack of effort).

I also don't agree that Forsberg's speed made the D back off. The D backed off because of Forsberg's unpredictable moves, strength, and stickhandling ability (plus Forsberg has a nasty habit of holding the defenseman's stick to prevent the D from making a play on the puck). Whatever speed he had built up is a small factor compared with all the other things he does with the puck. Forsberg isn't slow, but speed isn't part of his game. I think might as well agree to disagree.

As an Avalanche fan, I would certainly hope that we could get Forsberg out against Zubov-Numminen instead of Boucher-Matvichuk. Both Boucher *and* Matvichuk have historically gotten under Foppa's skin enough that I would give the edge to the Stars in such a match-up. On a Zubov-Numminen pairing against The Burnaby Sauna line, I would love to see Sakic and Kariya penetrate the right side defense, usually Numminen. Of course, this is just when entering the zone.

I personally think the Stars' defensive pairings match-up better with the Avalanche forwards than the Red Wings. Lidstrom-Hatcher is a downright scary tandem, but I am not too big a fan of Hatcher in the playoffs and if Forsberg's line can get around him, odd-man rushes against *any* defenseman, including Lidstrom, are likely scoring chances. The second pairing of Chelios-Fischer does not intimidate me at all, and I would go so far as to say that Sakic's line could tear them apart, footspeed wise.

On all that, we agree. It took awhile didn't it? :D There's Lidstrom and then there's a big dropoff. Hatcher, Chelios, and Fischer are all undisciplined players (in terms of the penalties they take). Hatcher and Chelios are just downright slow. I don't think the Wings defense is anything to get excited about. We'll see how they do against the mighty Sens tonight.

I don't find the Wings to be a real strong team. I know they have the firepower on paper, but I don't think this year's version is all that impressive. They still have three goalies and no elite #1 center. I expected the Wings to fill that slot and since they haven't done so, I don't expect the team to be all that big of a deal. Datsyuk and Zetterberg haven't had to deal with any prolonged offensive slumps with them being the top guys now either. So many question marks surrounding this year's Wings team.

I think if you are talking the best in the West, you have to concider each of the Avs, Stars or Wings to have valid arguments for their team being the top. It looks to me that the Avs are excellent on the first two lines and top D pairings, with weakness coming in depth and perhaps in net. I'm not saying this is how it will play out in the season, but just looking at things now.

The Wings are strong in net, have a very deep D, but may be kind of aging when one looks to their scoring. If they have a weakness, this may be the area.

The Stars seem to be deep throughout the team... is it really a weakness not having one part of the team being stronger than the other?

None of the coaches really make me think one is any better than the other, with maybe Granato falling behind the other two.

If I was a gambler, I'd choose the Wings because they have the strongest tender. Next would be the Stars followed by the Avs. Don't get me wrong, any of these teams could jell at the right time and dominate in the post season, and they are all pretty bloody talented.

But since I'm not a gambler, I'll choose the Canucks because they are just realizing how good they can be. :yo: