Bolt Fans on the Panthers' Page - Not!

While scanning our inter-division rivals' pages, I came across a thread on the Panthers' page where an outsider gives them props as an up-and-coming team. Interesting enough, but about 5 or 6 postings in it becomes an "I hate the Lightning" thread. Funny, because there was no particular reason for it. The more I thought about it, the more I liked that the Lightning were hated. It may only be a taste of what Maple Leaf, Canadien, and Red Wing fans may experience, but I'd rather be hated than dismissed. For your mild amusement, here's the link:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=12604

The best part is that Panther fans who get Sunshine Network are exposed to rah-rah Lightning programming that I'm sure they can't take their eyes off of.

Out of the whole post there were 2 people that said that they hated the bolts, or add a couple of teams to the list. I wouldn't consider that to be a I hate post. True, it did go off subject, but there have been lots of posts that seem to go that way.


Anyway

The best part is that Panther fans who get Sunshine Network are exposed to rah-rah Lightning programming that I'm sure they can't take their eyes off of.


Foxsports shows 75 games a season that are based from the panthers. You know I don't think I have ever watched an away game on the sunshine network. To be honest I didn't even know they showed the bolt's game. And I am sure that if they are not watching on foxsports they are watching on "Center Ice"


Hey but you got me hooked to see this "rah-rah Lightning programming" at least once. :p

Yeah, I saw that the other day, I frequent their board actually, it's, um, very enlightening.

My personal favorite was the one who said they'll show us this year why they have the lead in the all-time series. That's as good as the Habs fan who came here saying to expect an ass kicking 'cause the Habs were coming to town (months ago, obviously). :)

I will say this for the catfans here, they're TONS better than the jerks on fanhome, those people are just brutal.

I really don't have too much of a problem with the Bolts. The only SE team I truely hate is the Caps.

Out of the whole post there were 2 people that said that they hated the bolts, or add a couple of teams to the list. I wouldn't consider that to be a I hate post. True, it did go off subject, but there have been lots of posts that seem to go that way.
Sorry, justapantherfan, I didn't mean to imply that the whole post from there on out was Lightning bashing. The point of my post was that for the first time, the Lightning are being mentioned with the word "hate" without them actually having done anything specific to earn it (i.e., a scrappy game, inflammatory quote from a player). It's a strange feeling here in Tampa to see someone dislike the team so strongly. It's kinda nice.

Foxsports shows 75 games a season that are based from the panthers. You know I don't think I have ever watched an away game on the sunshine network. To be honest I didn't even know they showed the bolt's game. And I am sure that if they are not watching on foxsports they are watching on "Center Ice"
Unless you have Center Ice, I doubt you'd be able to see a Sunshine broadcast of a Lightning game. I know I can't see live Panther games on Fox. I have to wait until the rerun at 4 in the morning (yes, I'm up that early, and I do get my hockey fix at that time), when they lift the broadcast restriction.

Hey but you got me hooked to see this "rah-rah Lightning programming" at least once. :p
Oh, it's the usual preseason/pregame stuff. Nothing substantial, just a bunch of fluff. But its Lightning fluff, so we watch.

My personal favorite was the one who said they'll show us this year why they have the lead in the all-time series.

That's one of two crutches Fecal Kitties fans have left to lean on:

1.) "We lead the all-time series (but have gotten our ***es kicked in it the last 3 years)".

2.) "We actually made it to the Stanley Cup Finals (SIX YEARS AGO, and have only won one playoff game ever since)".

Once those two crutches are kicked out from under PantherNation in the next 3-4 seasons, expect mass suicides of the puckbunnies down in South Florida (although that may happen anyway when Dudley starts dealing off guys like Luongo for a 6'6" pylon defenseman and a 2nd round pick as is his MO).

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of a-holes IMO.

-Pete Choquette

Sorry, justapantherfan, I didn't mean to imply that the whole post from there on out was Lightning bashing. The point of my post was that for the first time, the Lightning are being mentioned with the word "hate" without them actually having done anything specific to earn it (i.e., a scrappy game, inflammatory quote from a player). It's a strange feeling here in Tampa to see someone dislike the team so strongly. It's kinda nice.

Oh, miss-read what you were saying. :) , but you know no matter where you go theres always a bad seed. Some people just can't seem to understand, win-lose-draw it's just a game. I love my cats, I hate all other teams (when we are playing them, I hate all other players, when we are playing them), but would not pass up any chance of meeting just about any player and getting an auto. (well there are a few I would pass up on. :rolly: )



Unless you have Center Ice, I doubt you'd be able to see a Sunshine broadcast of a Lightning game. I know I can't see live Panther games on Fox. I have to wait until the rerun at 4 in the morning (yes, I'm up that early, and I do get my hockey fix at that time), when they lift the broadcast restriction.


I don't have center ice. I am season ticket holder so I see them 43 times a year, and what games I can't see I end up at a friends house or bar to watch. I get sunshine network I have just never watched a game on it. If I can't watch it if I am working I record them and watch them when I get home. I too have seen a many a late night. :handclap:




Oh, it's the usual preseason/pregame stuff. Nothing substantial, just a bunch of fluff. But its Lightning fluff, so we watch.


Yeah we have the same pregame thing. Boy it's a lot of fluff huh. :dazzle:

Rumour is Dudley will hope to pick off Keefe from Tampa through waivers !

Rumour is Dudley will hope to pick off Keefe from Tampa through waivers !
"Rumor" is that Dudley doesn't even have room to protect his own players, yet he's going to pick up Keefe? Sure. Not that any of us would be shocked that he wants another of his "boys" back.

Your "rumor" didn't fly on the Panthers board, and it's not flying here. If you don't give a source, it's assumed that you made it up.

I'm a Panthers fan but the Lightning are in my top-5 that's for sure !
You have a great organisation, I just think that it is your GM who isn't that bright but you can't do nothing about it !

And please, don't say that Dudley is an idiot because so far, he has made one heck of a job ! And I also think it's Dudley who brought in Vinnie Prospal, Dan Boyle and Nikolai Khabibulin, didn't he ? :p

And please, don't say that Dudley is an idiot because so far, he has made one heck of a job ! And I also think it's Dudley who brought in Vinnie Prospal, Dan Boyle and Nikolai Khabibulin, didn't he ? :p
You just named 3 deals out of the 100+ he made while he was here. I can think of probably 5 others that were equally as good. That's not such a fabulous track record in my book. We'll call Dudley whatever we want, thanks.

And please, don't say that Dudley is an idiot because so far, he has made one heck of a job ! And I also think it's Dudley who brought in Vinnie Prospal, Dan Boyle and Nikolai Khabibulin, didn't he ?

Adrian Aucoin for Mathieu Biron and a 2nd Round Pick (Since Leaving Tampa Aucoin Has Had a 34 and a 35 Point Season and Led the Isles In IT Both Years)

Michael Nylander for Bryan Muir and Reid Simpson (Since Leaving Tampa Nylander Has Had Seasons of 54, 64, 61, and 60 points)

The #5 Overall Pick in 2000- Has Become Chris Dingman and Shane Willis (Production Value in Lineup Last Season: 2 goals, 3 points)

The #1 Overall Pick in 1999- Has Become Nikita Alexeev, Anton But, Fredrik Norrena, Sascha Goc, Alex Polushin (Production Value in Lineup Last Season: 4 goals 6 points)

Letting Bill Houlder Go on Waivers (Since Being Allowed to Walk Houlder Only Missed One Game in Three Seasons for the Predators)

Mike Sillinger for Ryan Johnson (Mike Sillinger Has Seasons of 41, 43, and 43 Points Since the Trade Not to Mention His Faceoff Ability, Ryan Johnson Has 34 Points TOTAL Since the Trade)

Wall of Busts:
Todd Warriner- BUST
Mike Johnson- BUST
Yogi Svejkovsky- BUST (Post-Concussion Syndrome)
Andrei Zyuzin- BUST
Marek Posmyk- BUST
Mathieu Biron- BUST
Kristian Kudroc- BUST

Wall of Mediocrity:
Sheldon Keefe- 12G 24P in 125 Games
Jimmie Olvestad- 3G 17P in 111 Games
Nikita Alexeev- 8G 14P in 81 Games

Point Being: Dudley may be good at stockpiling players but 2/3 of them DON'T PAN OUT... and the ones that might he is too impatient with and tries to deal them off for more picks/prospects (a spiraling cycle of stupidity). And he is HORRIBLE at trading away his established NHLers, as he gets nothing but garbage for them.

Think about that next time you beat your chests about "Our team will be so great with Nedorost and Taticek and Stewart!" etc etc ad nauseam. For every Martin St. Louis there were two bums like Todd Warriner Dudley forced down our throats. The laws of attrition and the principle of **** luck (AKA the Blind Squirrel Law) may have yielded a handful of good players in his time, but this is also the man who TRIED TO TRADE VINCENT LECAVALIER FOR RADEK BONK!!!

Reality check Panthers fans: Dudley is no guru and you're going to be our ***** for a LONG LONG time to come.

-Pete Choquette

P.S. And do you know who I REALLY hate??? Rick Dudley and Panthers fans.

I don't know why you all go crazy and just attack me...
The final result is that you are contender for 1rst place in the Southeast and the cornerstones of your team are from Dudley's era. That was my only point !

You have a great team and great fans ! I don't know why you bashed me ! I'm not from Miami, I'm for Florida-state, so I considered myself also a Bolts fan but with your comments I think I'm a hated guy out there, so I won't post anymore on this board I'll just read !

Hope you enjoy the upcoming season !

I don't know why you all go crazy and just attack me...

No one attacked you personally, Havlat. Get a thicker skin, especially if you are a Dudley sympathizer. Many here have little respect for Dudley, and Pete's litany of Dudley-deals are proof positive. It's an emotional topic for most Bolt fans. It would be like going to a Flyer board and talking about how great Lindros is and telling everybody what great character he has. Get the picture?

Bolt fans, like current Panther fans, were euphoric when he first arrived. And he began amassing all these prospects and picks. The future looked bright, if you could see that far ahead. However, as Pete pointed out, the Pokemon game began to wear thin as the endless cycle of acquiring and reacquiring prospects seemed to never end. Pokemon Dudley doesn't get his kicks off building a Stanley Cup contender team; Little Ricky gets his kicks from momentary euphoria of the "act of the trade". He's like a crack addict, but his addiction is to the trade itself.

Best thing Ottawa ever did was get rid of Dudley before he dismantled the team. And speaking of Ottawa...

Don't forget the Lightning had to trade Rob Zamuner + 3 draft picks to Ottawa just to get Dudley in the first place. Talk about salt in an open wound...

Rick Dudley would be a FANTASTIC head of scouting in this league, but he is a very very very very VERY VERY VERY VERY overrated general manager, and the unbridled euphoria of Panthers fans and even certain Lightning pessimists who think its somehow "cool" to bash Feaster through revisionist history and kissing up to Rick Dudley drives me absolutely insane. It ranges from ignorant in the case of Panthers fans who simply don't understand the nature of what Dudley did here in Tampa all the way to complete intellectual dishonesty in the case of Lightning pessimists who completely ignore the HORRORS of a healthy portion of Rick Dudley's record as GM.

I also think that bandwagon dilettante fans who didn't live and die with this team for the last half a decade are ignorant of that past that read some of these local newspaper writers put out these occassional PANDERING and BUTT KISSING pro-Dudley articles and don't know any better. I find it charmingly amusing these same writers haven't had the fortitude to go back and write a pro-Esposito article (all he did was make the trade with San Jose that insured we did indeed get Lecavalier which was the difference between having #4 or having David Legwand) or a pro Donny Murdoch article (because all he did was steal Brad Richards in the 3rd round and Pavel Kubina in the 7th along with Martin Cibak who was a 9th round selection). NOT ONE mention of the fact that Cibak was a pre-Dudley regime pick in any of the Cibak articles recently put out into the market. TERRIBLY irresponsible, IMO.

People need to understand the very axis around which this organization turns (Lecavalier and Richards) was inherited from the Esposito-Demers and Donny Murdoch camp. DUDLEY INHERITED RICHARDS AND LECAVALIER. And in the case of Richards, he made him jump through hoops at the Memorial Cup finals just to get his contract! Had he not blown the doors off of Barrie in the last game he might not've been signed! You want to talk about the potentially most short-sighted and ignorant move in the recent history of hockey: that could've been it! I mean Jesus Christ, I read an interview with Rimouski's coach that year where he claimed they didn't send a single scout to watch or talk to Brad for 2/3 to 3/4 of that season. Apparently 'round about the 130th point Brad put up that year Rick Dudley finally got off his anti-Murdoch pick bias and finally begrudgingly decided to do something about the junior phenom he had in his system!

Not to mention he inherited:
Pavel Kubina (still here, top-4 d-man)
Jassen Cullimore (still here, top-4 d-man)
Paul Mara (centerpiece of the Khabi trade)
Michael Nylander
Darcy Tucker
Chris Gratton

Anyone who tells you the cupboard was bare when Rick Dudley took over this team doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. For crying out loud look at this team's competition for the RW job on Lecavalier and Stillman's wing! Arguably your two biggest competitiors for that job right now are Eero Somervuori and Shane Willis. Were these two guys originally Rick Dudley draft picks? Did they come in under Jay Feaster? NO! These were Donny Murdoch's players originally!

Phil Esposito, Jacques Demers, and Donny Murdoch will NEVER get enough credit for what they actually did manage to pass down to this organization (under INCREDIBLY difficult situations which once Phil's book finally comes out will make your head swim) and Rick Dudley has ALWAYS gotten way TOO MUCH credit for his time here. And he may have pulled the wool over the eyes of Panthers fans, and Lightning pessimist revisionists, the bandwagon Lightning fan dilettantes (who don't know any better), and a handful of local newspaper writers who delight in occassionally tossing Dudley's salad (figuratively, of course) in print... but I will NEVER forget some of the things he did to this organization and things he tried to do to this organization (LIKE HE TRIED TO TRADE VINCENT LECAVALIER!!!) and I will always endeavor to speak on what I feel is the true history of the building of this team.

And if anyone of those newspaper reporters had the cajones, they'd talk to guys like Feaster and others in the front office (who know better than I do the crap Dudley tried to pull), they'd talk to Espo and Demers and Murdoch, and they'd present a truly fair and accurate history of the making of the Tampa Bay Lightning, because right now we haven't heard it. We haven't heard it! And I think at least these bandwagon Lightning fans (and once we started winning it was inevitable they would hop on) who don't know the suffering and agony a lot of us went through should be exposed to it.

I don't want this turning into a disgusting mutual admiration society like the Bucs fans have become when every beer sucking turncoat jabronie from Brandon to Bradenton who couldn't have given a rats behind about that team in the 1980's and early 90's but now love to plaster Bucs stickers, novelty license plates, and window flags all over their pickups and wear their favorite Bucs t-shirt three times a week. I WON'T STAND FOR IT. I don't mind if you jump on the bandwagon, but you'd better learn the history and the lore and understand the pain of the REAL fans who have been behind these young men from the beginning.

And a good portion of that pain was inflicted by Rick Dudley.

-Pete Choquette

P.S. Have I mentioned I never really liked Rick Dudley?

P.S.S. Dan Kesa.

P.S.S.S. Ian Herbers.

You just named 3 deals out of the 100+ he made while he was here. I can think of probably 5 others that were equally as good. That's not such a fabulous track record in my book. We'll call Dudley whatever we want, thanks.



Cross for Modin
Trading Johnson for Prospal
#1 pick for Cloutier, 1st round, 3 3rd rounders, and Sundstrom
Mara, Zainullin, 2nd rounder, Johnson for Khabibulin
Signing of Marty

those are my 5

lol Pete, you make some interesting points; but I actually loved Dudley and what he did here. He had the same problems Feaster has now, but decided to go a different route by trading players for future players and keeping a strong scouting staff rather than use it on free agents and resigning players.

Do you think if Dudley was GM we would be out an AHL team this season or sharing a team? Must I remind you all he made out like a villian in the 99 draft instead of getting Pavel Brendl aka BUST. That he didn't just trade the #5 pick for Dingman and Willis, but for Weekes, a second round pick, and Kudroc(as you precariously forgot to mention)...who may not have been a bust if given a chance in a different system. Weekes is one of the better goalies in the league now who was traded away by non other than Feaster for that garbage; and the second round pick was essential in the Khabibulin trade. No one gives Dudley credit for signing St. Louis and insisting he get in the lineup, or for the good deals he pulled off which they're were. Yes he has made some bad deals(Gratton, Tucker), which were made out to be much worse when you had a transition from one philosophy in Dudley, to another in Feaster. But I do not share your disgust and hatred of the man; nor am I appalled at what he did here. And contrary to popular belief, he DID NOT have anything when he got here. Where was the goalie? I can't even name our best defenseman, nor were our lines NHL caliber. They got Tucker and Gratton on a single line together and there wasn't much else behind them. Gratton was traded because they wanted Vinny to have the C and Nylander had a major attitude problem and didn't want to address his D. You also mention how Mara was a major part of the Khabibulin deal but did essentially nothing here, yet Cloutier is not mentioned who helped lead Vancouver to the playoffs. How about trading Johnson back to the Panthers for Prospal?


Atleast Dudley had the gaul to make trades when they needed to be made. Was trading for Khabibulin one of those trading solid players for prospects? I think not. I wonder if we would still be lacking a top 4 guy if Dudley was still GM. I think not. Ian Herbers and Dan Kesa, those were Ludzik protigies not Dudleys; and he brought them in because they were familiar with Steve's system. The only major trade in the Feaster era has been a bust/potential bust(only if Pitkannen has his left leg amputated) in trading the #4 pick.


If you hadn't so effortlessly skewed the actual facts in one direction people may remember some of the good things Dudley did here. I don't dismiss some of the God forsaken awful things like how he didn't want to sign Richards(worried about the speed-Dudleys addicted to size and speed remember), and you forgot to mention the Mike Johnson gaff that irks me to even attempt and remember.


All 3 big wig's; Phil, (Demers&), Dudley, and Feaster have done great things for this organization and have done some bad things(heh, forget to mention how Phil got Vinny? part of that HORRIBLE Hamrlik deal). But they all helped mold the Bolts into what they are today and I wouldn't have it any other way, even the Dudley part.

Trading Johnson for Prospal

Which only salvaged an awful Sillinger for Johnson deal.

#1 pick for Cloutier, 1st round, 3 3rd rounders, and Sundstrom

We got a whopping 6 points of production from the remainders from that trade last season. Waste of a #1 overall pick.

Mara, Zainullin, 2nd rounder, Johnson for Khabibulin

That trade had more to do with the team's ties to Cliff Fletcher than any Dudley genius. And that's what he turned Darcy Tucker into: mere sweetener in a multi-player deal and a guy who has been banished to the netheregions of the Czech Extraleague (Posmyk). Great job Dudley.

You left out Boyle for a 5th. Mind you he tried to trade Sarich for Boyle straight up earlier that year and the trade had to be quashed by our upper management. Great judge of NHL level market value that Rick Dudley is!

Do you think if Dudley was GM we would be out an AHL team this season or sharing a team?

He was when he left here wasn't he? Lets remember who the dual affiliation with Springfield was started under.

Must I remind you all he made out like a villian in the 99 draft instead of getting Pavel Brendl aka BUST.

Well lets see: we got 6 points in production from that trade last year (Alexeev). Brendl had 13 points last year. Still think we made out like a villain?

Zyuzin was a bust. He cut Houlder loose for nothing. Burr retired shortly after the re-acquisition. And, finally, Cloutier did squat when he was here. He wasted those third rounders, and he reached for Alexeev at 9 in 2000. And just when you think maybe he pulled that trade out of the fire getting Aucoin and a 2nd for Cloutier, he deals off Aucoin for Biron and a 2nd. Zyuzin is now gone for But, Goc (who may never see NA again) and Boumedienne who begat Fredrik Norrena (who may never see NA ice, period). Now, granted, we've gotten three decent prospects out of precipitant exchanges over the years (Polushin, Holmqvist, and But). Maybe we will make out like a villain eventually. But from where I sit, if its four years after a trade of a commodity like a #1 overall pick and all you have to show for it is 6 points in production... someone didn't do a good job (Dudley).

That he didn't just trade the #5 pick for Dingman and Willis, but for Weekes, a second round pick, and Kudroc(as you precariously forgot to mention)...

No, I'm pointing out what the legacy of Dudley's deals are in what is left on this team, which is a handful of squat.

Weekes is one of the better goalies in the league now

Which league? The Fantasy Land Hockey League? He finished 10 games under .500 last year and backstopped the Canes to the worst record in hockey. You don't honestly think he could've led the Lightning anywhere but off a cliff do you?

No one gives Dudley credit for signing St. Louis

EVERYONE gives him credit for that signing. TOO MUCH credit. Like I said, for every St. Louis there are 2 or 3 Warriners and Svejkovskys who imploded. This is what Dudley does... throws mid-level prospects at the wall and hopes 1 or 2 of them stick. He doesn't mind the mess he makes in the process, I always did.

and insisting he get in the lineup

Revisionist history. St. Louis earned his spot in camp and ex-games and then earned his first taste of scoring line IT by having a closed door meeting with Steve Ludzik to ask for that chance. The rest is history. If anything, it was Steve Ludzik listening to Marty and giving him that opportunity that was the lynchpin to his successes, not anything Rick Dudley did from on high.

which were made out to be much worse when you had a transition from one philosophy in Dudley, to another in Feaster.

How? Those two deals (Tuckers and Grattons) were almost completely liquidated by the time Feaster took over. Mike Johnson had already been dealt as sweetener for Khabi and Posmyk had already gone back to the Czech Republic. Wayne Primeau had been dealt for Matthew Barnaby and then dealt for the immortal Zdeno Ciger, Holzinger had already become a non-entity by that time, and it was clear all we had left of any quality from both deals was Cory Sarich. Please show me where Feaster did anything other than sweep up the garbage that Dudley had left behind from those two trades.

And contrary to popular belief, he DID NOT have anything when he got here.

First of all, its popular belief that Dudley DIDN'T inherit anything.

And second of all: Bull. He inherited Vinny Lecavalier, Brad Richards, Jassen Cullimore, Pavel Kubina, Chris Gratton, Michael Nylander, Paul Mara, Petr Svoboda, and Mike Sillinger. He inherited some good pieces, but by throwing away half for next to nothing he prolonged the rebuilding process and the fans' suffering... not to mention his string of bringing in ex-Vipers bums like Dan Kesa and Ian Herbers and trying to pass them off as NHLers. For that alone he should've been canned on sight.

Where was the goalie?

And why did Dudley constantly try to fill that need on the cheap with young unproven players like Cloutier and Weekes before finally pulling his head out of his rear and getting a veteran close to 3 years into his tenure?

I can't even name our best defenseman

Pavel Kubina. Jassen Cullimore (who he actually farmed to Providence at first). Petr Svoboda. Paul Mara. You're right, he inherited total crap on the blueline (if Svoboda were healthy today I might take that top-4 over what we have now).

Gratton was traded because they wanted Vinny to have the C

Another great decision by Dudley. What did that C do to Vinny's career?

Nylander had a major attitude problem and didn't want to address his D.

Little story about Michael Nylander. First shift under Ludzik he scores a goal. Second shift he misses a backchecking assignment. Third shift he's benched. About a week or two later he's dealt for a moldy jock (Muir) and a bag of pucks (Simpson). Point of the story: Ludzik had it in for Nylander and cooler heads did not prevail and he was prematurely ejected for less than market value. Ditto the rash waiving of Bill Houlder.

You also mention how Mara was a major part of the Khabibulin deal but did essentially nothing here

And he's become a solid young 25 point two-way defenseman in Phoenix whose mobility makes him capable of filling minutes. Know any team who could use a player like that today?

yet Cloutier is not mentioned who helped lead Vancouver to the playoffs.

The Canucks fans want to string Cloutier up! Who are you kidding?! Bertuzzi and Naslund etc led that team into the playoffs, Cloutier was largely just along for the ride!

How about trading Johnson back to the Panthers for Prospal?

How about dealing Sillinger for Johnson in the 1st place?

Atleast Dudley had the gaul to make trades when they needed to be made.

Is that why he waited almost 3 years to get a real veteran goaltender?

I wonder if we would still be lacking a top 4 guy if Dudley was still GM.

We'd still HAVE that top 4 guy if that MORON hadn't dealt away Adrian Aucoin for next to nothing!!!

The only major trade in the Feaster era has been a bust/potential bust(only if Pitkannen has his left leg amputated) in trading the #4 pick.

Lets compare production of returns:

1999 #1 overall-----> 6 points (Alexeev)
2000 #5 overall-----> 3 points (Dingman)

2002 #4 overall-----> 47 points (Fedotenko, Lukowich)

Really quick: who made the first two trades and who made the third, and which would you rather have as your GM?

We won't even mention that *minor* Grahame for a 6th rounder trade or that *terrible* Roy for Juha (Hasta I'm Going Back to Finland) Ylonen trade.

Let me tell you why Feaster has been better for the Lightning than Dudley: even though he is judicious to the point of being maddening in making deals he NEVER makes trades just for the sake of making deals and he doesn't trade quality for quantity which was the hallmark of the Rick Dudley era. He has identified the core on this team, turned them loose, and let them grow together. Dudley couldn't do that. Dudley tried to trade Vincent Lecavalier. Dudley couldn't get Tortorella to shut up about Vinny in the media. Feaster did.

Now, I'm not Feaster's biggest fan, but he's done a lot for this organization just by keeping his hands off the young talent here and telling Tortorella to put a sock in it. More than Dudley ever did for it in the only place that matters: THE STANDINGS.

Want to know why Vancouver's GM was teasing Dudley saying "There goes Yoda, master of the draft." at the 2003 Draft? Because Dudley's a draft genius? No, its because with the exception of the one year he was in Ottawa Rick Dudley has never NOT been in the first row (AKA amongst the 5 worst teams in the league) at the draft. He may be good at amassing talent, but he hasn't figured out that whole troublesome "winning" thing. But no matter to him, he's still happy as a lark as long as he gets a top 5 pick to Pokemon around for more picks. He's perfectly content to be "Yoda, master of the draft."

Forgive me though if I got sick of it.

-Pete Choquette

P.S. And you know who I'd really like to throw a shoe at?

Rick Dudley.

-Pete Choquette

First off I'd like to say, I used to be a Bolt fan, but (and right about here Pete will choke.. :)) I am a Dudley fan and I am not a "Backstabber-Feaster" fan.

A quick glance at the Top 15 scorers in Tampa last year:
1. Prospal. (Duds for a 6th and R. Johnson)
2. Richards.
3. Vinny.
4. Boyle. (Duds for a 5th round)
5. St. Louis. (Duds for 200k)
6. Modin. (Duds for Cross and a 7th)
7. Kubina.
8. Andreychuk (One of Duds best moves)
9. Lukowich (see below)
10. Fedotenko (I believe the rest of the hockey community are still wondering what Mr. Feaster was thinking that day)
11. Clymer (Duds for Gratton)
12. Sarich (see above)
13. Taylor (for Freadrich and Ekman)
14. Roy (Feaster for Ylonen, a good trade, got Paul Ranger as well)
15. Pratt (Duds for a 6th)

Not to mention all the sceptics after he traded for a rusty Khabibulin that hadn't played for a year.

You are right Pete, the cup wasn't bare, but I dislike your bashing of Dudley. This because (one being I like him), but also because Duds brought in 10 of the Top 16 players that took Tampa to the second round of the playoffs and gives them high hopes for the future.

If you can't see any good in that, then please keep this post for a couple of years, when the Panthers will steamroll the Bolts... :)

He had the same problems Feaster has now, but decided to go a different route by trading players for future players and keeping a strong scouting staff rather than use it on free agents and resigning players.

I guess the problem some of us see is the "resigning" part. He seemed to love to pick up those prospects, but then had little patience to wait for them to develop. As pointed out, he was actively shopping Lecavalier (it cost him his job). Wasn't Sarich on the block, as well? Prospects are great, they're obviously essential, but you also have to eventually keep some of 'em around long enough to have a chance to develop.

Gratton was traded because they wanted Vinny to have the C

Now, that's the first time I've heard that story. It was always my understanding that Gratton and Tucker were traded because they were disruptive in the locker room and were causing all sorts of problems. Gratton was injured or suspended, I can't remember which, and Vincent wore the C in his absence. The players then went to the GM and asked that Vincent remain captain. I guess that can be construed as trading the player to make someone else the C, but that's another mark against the GM who would cave to the whims of others.

Dudley's response to Lecavalier's problems was to try to trade him. Feaster's was to tell both player and coach that they needed to work things out because neither was going anywhere. When the coach refused to comply, he was flat out told to stop bashing the player via the media. (I have that on first hand knowledge in a letter from Jay Feaster.) I know which of the two methods I prefer.

Feaster told us at lunch recently that when given a tight budget, Dudley's technique was to throw his hands up in disgust and deal players away to get under the limit. Feaster's is to try to shuffle things around, then go to Davidson & present a logical case as to why the budget isn't enough & why it makes sense to go over if needed. I guess we have proof of that at this point (which can obviously change at any moment, of course), seeing as the deals given to Boyle and Richards took us over our announced budget and, so far, there has been no salary dumping to compensate. I like that better than having to ditch an Andreychuk or Sarich.

-Sharon

This because (one being I like him), but also because Duds brought in 10 of the Top 16 players that took Tampa to the second round of the playoffs and gives them high hopes for the future.

Just keep in mind that at the time of his firing, he was also trying to deal away a number of those same players.

-Sharon

Just keep in mind that at the time of his firing, he was also trying to deal away a number of those same players.

-Sharon
Amen.

What good reading Pete, thanks! I've been trying to warn the catfans for months now about Dudley, but he feeds them BS about his time here and they believe it.

1. Dudley likes to claim he HAD to make 100s of trades here because the team he inherited was so screwed up
2. He has also claimed that the return he would have gotten for Vinny would have made us "INSTANT Cup Contenders", yet won't say who was coming back our way. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:
3. Dudley claims the ownership tied his hands and left him no choice with his deals (way to take personal responsibility there, Duds!). Sharon brings up what Feaster said about that. God knows who we'd have had to dump this summer if Duds was still here (in addition to Prospal) because we're still over budget!

Like you said, Pete, one of the best things Feaster has done is just leave the team the hell alone and let them mature and gel together.

Just don't come crying to us when he wants to trade Luongo :D

PS Espo's book is Thunder and Lightning: A No B.S. Hockey Memoir, ISBN# 1572435399, out now I believe, sounds excellent :D

Like you said, Pete, one of the best things Feaster has done is just leave the team the hell alone and let them mature and gel together.

Let's not forget, either, that while Dudley gets props for making the trade for Khabibulin, it was Jay Feaster who got him to sign a contract within 2 weeks, something Phoenix couldn't get done in something like 2 years.

PS Espo's book is Thunder and Lightning: A No B.S. Hockey Memoir, ISBN# 1572435399, out now I believe, sounds excellent :D

Available on amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1572435399/qid=1064500179/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-4899217-8358254

Scroll down for reviews, etc.

-Sharon

yeah Sharon, Gratton had suffered an injury(groin I believe) and Vinny assumed the C. Vinny impressed the team so much while with it, that they held a meeting(I believe) and asked that Vinny keep it. To keep the peace(I guess) he traded Gratton to Buffalo for Sarich, Holzinger, etc.


Kubina, Cullimore, Svoboda, and Mara are better than Kubina, Cullimore, Boyle, and Sarich?

Production wise Alexeev isn't up to par yet; but he is in the same mold as a Taylor Pyatt. You know better than anyone Pete that power forwards take time to develop. When he scored that fluke/skill goal in the playoffs it probably gave him loads of confidence(which didn't carry over to this year); but he deffinatly adds a different element to the game, if only he could be more consistent and refine it to picking up the garbage goals and points.

Interesting reading. And as with most arguements, the truth lies somewhat in the middle. Was Dudley a disaster? Far from it. The bottom line is that the team and the farm system were in far better shape when he left than when he arrived. The savior? No. He couldn't keep from tinkering and messing up what he had improved.

I think that the discussion of the 1999 1st round pick shows both the best and worst of Dudley. The trade of the #1 pick for the #9 pick a year later plus Cloutier and Sundstrom was an excellent deal. It was weakened when he traded Sundstrom for 6 players, the 3 that stuck were Guolla, Holder and Zyuzin. It went down further when Holder and Guolla were let go on waivers and Zyuzin was traded for a player that has never come over, one that went back to Europe and one that was let go for a goalie that was never signed.

Then we have the Cloutier side. Pete, I think you might have still liked the overall deal had we stopped when we got Aucoin. Instead, as you point out, he went for Biron, who was lost in the waiver draft and Holmqvist.

Dudley made a number of good moves. Many have been discussed. You discussed the Vinny for Bonk, Salo and Spezza reported deal that cost him his job. Whether that was a good or bad deal won't be known for a few years - until Spezza matures. My read on that one was that it would have asset wise been a good deal for the Bolts, but would have slowed our progress to a crawl. All in all better that it wasn't made.

Dudley is like the guy at the slot machine. Even when he wins the jackpot, he just can't stop sticking the tokens back into the machine until they are all gone.

11. Clymer (Duds for Gratton)

First of all, incorrect. Ben Clymer was signed as a UFA who had escaped the Boston Bruins through the Van Ryn loophole.

Second of all, he had Lecavalier on the blocks and pretty much completed the deal and ownership had to step in. He also had essentially traded Sarich for Dan Boyle at one point during the season and ownership had to step in a quash that deal as well.

7 of the top-16 players on this team, essentially half, (and in the case of 70 point scorers EXACTLY half, 2/4) came from Esposito-Demers or Feaster. How DARE anyone suggest this is Dudley's team. Its NOT.

Duds brought in 10 of the Top 16 players that took Tampa to the second round of the playoffs and gives them high hopes for the future.

Only if you twist the stats to exclude Janne Laukkanen, btw.

Now, that's the first time I've heard that story.

Part of the rationale for dealing Gratton had to do with the negative pressure he was putting on the young players along with Tucker (see: making Ben Clymer cry). But in Gratton's case, part of it WAS to give Vinny the "C". When Gratton left the lineup due to injury that season they gave Vinny the "C" short term at that was that stretch when Warriner/Lecavalier/Johnson was white hot. So Dudley, in his immortal genius, decided he needed to give Vinny that "C" full time.

Look what that decision did to Lecavalier's career though.

Kubina, Cullimore, Svoboda, and Mara are better than Kubina, Cullimore, Boyle, and Sarich?

A little less offensive sans Boyle, but tighter defensively. Sorry, the latter is not that different in quality from the former.

Production wise Alexeev isn't up to par yet; but he is in the same mold as a Taylor Pyatt.

Taylor Pyatt has 38 points in his first two seasons in the NHL. Alexeev has 14. Care to change that analogy?

The trade of the #1 pick for the #9 pick a year later plus Cloutier and Sundstrom was an excellent deal.

Time has proven that Sundstrom was horribly overrated and keeping him in that deal may have been even worse than what little we got dealing him. San Jose even had to eat part of his salary just to dump him to Montreal last season he's fallen so far out of favor.

Had Dudley traded Lecavalier, and I kept saying it at the time the deal almost went down, we might've enjoyed a few years of playoff mediocrity but any dream of becoming an elite level franchise with the capability of chasing a Stanley Cup would've evaporated had that deal happened. He tried to break up the Lecavalier/Richards central core of this team... and for that he definitely deserved to be pushed out.

-Pete Choquette

P.S. And do you know who I'd like to punch in the nose almost as much as I'd like to smack Ann Coulter?

Rick Dudley.

-Pete Choquette

Even if you take Sundstrom out of the deal, and I wouldn't, Clutes plus a number 1 (which I believe actually turned out to be the #5 pick that went for Weekes) for an up to now bust Brendl is still an excellent move. Aucoin plus Sundstrom and Alexeev for Brendl is better, but the return is still good.

Alexeev at #9 was the pick we got in from the Rag$ in the Cloutier deal.

I think having the rights to Anton But might be a better prize than Sundstrom at this stage.

And there's nothing saying Brendl absolutely would've busted in Tampa. The Ranger$ are a notoriously awful organization at developing young talent and once the Philly fans get it in their heads anything negative about a young player they destroy them (see Gratton, Chris).

And yes, I realize that sticking up for Brendl is an unpopular position to take, but if we're going to sit here and talk up Alexeev's future lets be fair enough to point out Brendl has been better statistically at both the AHL and NHL level than Alexeev has been thus far. I mean Brendl has as many points in 58 games in the NHL as Alexeev has in 81. And maybe disciplinarian John Tortorella could straighten Brendl out. I DO know at the very least the Lightning would've made him get into shape.

-Pete Choquette

Threadwide correction: Alexeev was a #8 overall pick, which makes it even more of a reach.

-Pete Choquette

I am a Dudley fan and I am not a "Backstabber-Feaster" fan.
:rolleyes: Primo example of what I said, he feeds you guys BS about what happened here and you all believe it!

What other GM has "fans"??

If you can't see any good in that, then please keep this post for a couple of years, when the Panthers will steamroll the Bolts... :)
Not if you keep Dudley around :rolly:

yeah, I thought Clymer signed as an UFA; part of our top 6 future dman in Mara, Clymer, Kubina, Zyuzin, Sarich, and Kudroc. Funny that only 2 are still on the backline.


Drafting Alexeev it was known that he had 0 offensive capabilities. He had a weak shot; wrister and slapper, but he had all the natural tools to be a great power forward and was defensivly responsible. I don't expect him to hit any sort of rythem till hes atleast 22/23. Pyatt was also drafted a year behind Alexeev and higher up #5 I believe giving him extra time to develop. Im comparing their features btw not production. At this stage its a little premature to do either, 38 points and 14 points isn't that big of a measuring stick.

What other GM has "fans"??


Mike Milbury ^_^

P.S. And do you know who I'd like to punch in the nose almost as much as I'd like to smack Ann Coulter?

Rick Dudley.

-Pete Choquette

Wear rubber gloves if you get the opportunity to slap Ann Coulter. She would certainly splatter.

When is Dudley going to cut off that ridiculous comb over?