|
|
i don't think it's the mark of a bad leader to want to play as many minutes as possible... i believe a great leader should want as many minutes as he can get... he should believe he is capable of doing well and would leave everything out on the ice...
the problem with messier's minutes is the coaching... the coaches need to cut back his time... until they do, i think a leader should continue to log as many minutes as is being given...
i wouldn't want a leader to say, "nah, i'm not going out for that extra shift, i'm 40+, i got nothing in the tank"... that's a coward, not a leader...
i could understand the bashing if messier has refused to play the roll that the coaches and gm have given him... but the fact is, i don't think that the coach/gm has ever given him a reduced role... and that is where the problem is...
if messier had been told to take a reduced role and refused, then why would sather bring him back?... the problem is sather believes he can do more than mess can at this point...
that's the problem... don't blame mark for the coaches' blunders...
Laches 09-22-2003, 08:11 AM i don't think it's the mark of a bad leader to want to play as many minutes as possible... i believe a great leader should want as many minutes as he can get... he should believe he is capable of doing well and would leave everything out on the ice...
the problem with messier's minutes is the coaching... the coaches need to cut back his time... until they do, i think a leader should continue to log as many minutes as is being given...
i wouldn't want a leader to say, "nah, i'm not going out for that extra shift, i'm 40+, i got nothing in the tank"... that's a coward, not a leader...
i could understand the bashing if messier has refused to play the roll that the coaches and gm have given him... but the fact is, i don't think that the coach/gm has ever given him a reduced role... and that is where the problem is...
if messier had been told to take a reduced role and refused, then why would sather bring him back?... the problem is sather believes he can do more than mess can at this point...
that's the problem... don't blame mark for the coaches' blunders...
---I expect a good leader to want to do what is best for the team, not simply what makes him happy. Sure, Messier wants as many minutes as he can get, who doesn't? But simply wanting to play doesn't make you a great leader. Demanding to be out there when you know the team would be better off with someone else out there isn't great leadership. It's selfish.
Shadowtron 09-22-2003, 08:15 AM i don't think it's the mark of a bad leader to want to play as many minutes as possible... i believe a great leader should want as many minutes as he can get... he should believe he is capable of doing well and would leave everything out on the ice...
the problem with messier's minutes is the coaching... the coaches need to cut back his time... until they do, i think a leader should continue to log as many minutes as is being given...
i wouldn't want a leader to say, "nah, i'm not going out for that extra shift, i'm 40+, i got nothing in the tank"... that's a coward, not a leader...
i could understand the bashing if messier has refused to play the roll that the coaches and gm have given him... but the fact is, i don't think that the coach/gm has ever given him a reduced role... and that is where the problem is...
if messier had been told to take a reduced role and refused, then why would sather bring him back?... the problem is sather believes he can do more than mess can at this point...
that's the problem... don't blame mark for the coaches' blunders...
I agree with what you're saying. However, Mark should also know when he's hurting the team or helping. And if the coaching is too screwed up to realize Mark isn't the best option, then Messier should say something. But, he plods along, devouring ice time and taking a spot from a younger player.
Things have gotten so bad that everyone is a target for the fans' wrath. No one is safe. I mean, we bashed Wayne Gretzky for chrissakes. Hehehehe
he may still believe he can do it... it's upto the coaches or another "leader" on our team to tell him he can't...
if messier thought he was washed up and was just logging minutes to try and bump himself up on the all time scoring list i could understand... but i don't believe that's the case... he wants to win... he thinks he still can...
he's probably the greatest leader in the history of the nhl... he's not going to stop or believe he needs to stop unless someone in authority tells him he needs to or he can't...
FacelessButcher 09-22-2003, 08:28 AM I agree with what you're saying. However, Mark should also know when he's hurting the team or helping. And if the coaching is too screwed up to realize Mark isn't the best option, then Messier should say something. But, he plods along, devouring ice time and taking a spot from a younger player.
Things have gotten so bad that everyone is a target for the fans' wrath. No one is safe. I mean, we bashed Wayne Gretzky for chrissakes. Hehehehe
I think he as already determined that he is hurting the team as him and Sather had a chat where he said he would accept a smaller role. But as an Oiler fan I kind of want him playing big minutes just so he can be no.2 in the all time scoring list right next to Wayne Gretzky Yeah!!
P.S. How many games you think it will take him? Just 7 to break howes 1850 pt record(mainly posted just to ask this)
P.S. How many games you think it will take him? Just 7 to break howes 1850 pt record(mainly posted just to ask this)
depends on minutes and if he gets pp time...
True Blue 09-22-2003, 08:39 AM he may still believe he can do it... it's upto the coaches or another "leader" on our team to tell him he can't...
Doesn't really work that way. What "leader" (read: player) is going to tell Mark Messier that he can't cut it anymore? Coaches have had no success in doing it. Heck, under Trotts,there were several instances (judging by the unbelieving looks that Trotts had at the bench) that it seemed that he determined what situations warranted his presence on the ice. And Jackass treated him like he was still an elite player, so that certainly did not help matters at all.
"if messier thought he was washed up and was just logging minutes to try and bump himself up on the all time scoring list i could understand... but i don't believe that's the case... "
Believe it. That's the only reason that he is back for his 25th year.
"he's not going to stop or believe he needs to stop unless someone in authority tells him he needs to or he can't..."
He is not going to stop demanding ice time no matter what. And it is not necesarily that he demands it by being vocal. By now Jackass has as good idea as any as to what is Messier demanding.
Messier COULD be a terrific 4th line center who gets some time on the 2nd PP unit (think Larionov). If his time was limited to 8-12 minutes a night in the above role, he would be a terrific asset. The problem is that he still fancies himself an elite player. Another problem is his lack of practices and seeming immunity from the coaches wrath. No matter how many penaties he takes or how many coverages he blows by cheating for the quick break, he will not be benched or disciplined. The fact that he is allowed to practice or not practice at his own discretion is another problem. Kind of hard to lead a team that way.
kind of hard to believe sather would bring back such a problem player... if you don't think mess is trying to win, then you don't know mess... what in his past history would make you think he's greedy or selfish?...
Melrose_Jr. 09-22-2003, 08:51 AM he's probably the greatest leader in the history of the nhl.
When you consider the kind of lifeless play we've been watching since he slapped that "C" back on his chest, you could get a good argument going about the value of that "leadership". Honestly, I can't see him making any positive contributions to the team.
You are correct in saying that Sather should shoulder most of the blame for the whole situation though. It's clearly an example of making choices with your heart and not your head. Hey, I wanna see Messier move into 2nd as much as anybody, but in the grand scheme of things, there's no place for Messier on this team.
True Blue 09-22-2003, 09:04 AM kind of hard to believe sather would bring back such a problem player... if you don't think mess is trying to win, then you don't know mess... what in his past history would make you think he's greedy or selfish?...
1. Mess & Sather are best friends. Who else would sign Messier to a $5m contract last year? Who else would sign him to come back this year?
2. Who said anything about Messier not wanting to win?
3. What is it that makes me think that he is greedy or selfish? How about when he wanted a boatload of cash that the Gardner was not going to pay him so he bolted to the 'Nucks for $6m? How about him jumping onto the ice with Trotts staring on in disbelief?
There is a big difference between what Mess WAS and what he IS. He was probably the greates leader in all of sports at one time. But that time is at least 5 years ago. The fact of the matter is that Sather is the only one in the entire NHL who would have signed him for the amount of $$$ that he got in the past 3 years. The fact of the matter is that Sather is the only one in the NHL who would have given him as big of a role as he got in the past 3 years. The fact of the matter is that Sather is the only one in the entire NHL who would have brought him back this year.
Where were his leadership skills when everyone is at practice except for him? Where were his leadership skills when needing every point possible, he cheated for a breakaway and left his man all alone in the Ottawa game last year leading to the game winning goal? Where were his leadership skills when the Rangers mailed it in against Florida, 1 point out of a playoff spot? Where were his leadership skills when the entire team could not be bothered to show up against a Pens team that lost 16 game in a row?
Fletch 09-22-2003, 09:13 AM when others step it up. It hasn't happened in the last three, err six years.
True Blue 09-22-2003, 09:47 AM when others step it up. It hasn't happened in the last three, err six years.
How about Messier should play more when HE STEPS IT UP? Say what you want, Fletch, however it's not like Messier has been the best player on the ice. Exactly how has he stepped it up or outplayed others? The fact of the matter is that he has received more ice time that other FAR more deserving players. His play has indictated that his playing time should be greatly reduced, not increased.
i'm not going to debate whether his skill level has declined and possibly his decision making... but to knock a guy for wanting to be on the ice all the time is wrong...
the blame is entirely the coaching staff...
if he "jumped" on the ice to trott's disbelief, then he should have been benched the next game... if sather didn't allow trott's to bench him, then trotts should have resigned... there's your problem... not messier... the coaching and management...
True Blue 09-22-2003, 09:53 AM if he "jumped" on the ice to trott's disbelief, then he should have been benched the next game... if sather didn't allow trott's to bench him, then trotts should have resigned... there's your problem... not messier... the coaching and management...
That's pretty funny. Sather bench Messier? Do you really think that has a chance of happening? Everyone knows that Messier is immune from any benchings or other disciplinary measures becuase of the protection given by Sather. And as for Trotts resigning, how many NHL coaches can you name that have resigned their position?
Vito Andolini 09-22-2003, 10:16 AM if he "jumped" on the ice to trott's disbelief, then he should have been benched the next game... if sather didn't allow trott's to bench him, then trotts should have resigned... there's your problem... not messier... the coaching and management...
Wait a second now Pipo, I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. Most people on this board are weeeellll aware of how incompetent our management is. It's their fault for signing a 4th liner to a 3 million plus contract, but I think you are missing our point here. That as a "leader", when you know your skills have dimished to point where you are a shadow of the player you once were, maybe your job should be as a teacher, and not a performer. Leader means putting the team first, not your individual accolades. I don't think any of us would dispute that Mark is a winner, but what ever happened to going out with a little integrity?
And as for your comment about Trots...how do you think it would reflect on a 1st year coach to resign and effectively quit on his team? Trots is a very classy individual, and if it were any other coach who was fired midseason last year on our team, we wouldn't be speculating on what was going on in the locker room. They woulda blabbed to the papers about how this organization is run a$$ed backwards.
Laches 09-22-2003, 11:00 AM i'm not going to debate whether his skill level has declined and possibly his decision making... but to knock a guy for wanting to be on the ice all the time is wrong...
---Nobody is faulting him for wanting to be on the ice all the time. They're faulting 1) your equating the desire for icetime with great leadership (there are plenty of guys out there that would love to suit up for an NHL team and get a regular shift, it doesn't mean that they're great leaders) and 2) Messier's refusal to set aside what he wants in favor of what is best for the team.
Messier will stop playing when they have to haul his dead body off the ice, even then it won't be till after he is part of a giveaway =)
all my point is, is that this is entirely managements fault... how can you blame a guy for wanting to lead this team and wanting to earn his fat salary...
That's pretty funny. Sather bench Messier? Do you really think that has a chance of happening? Everyone knows that Messier is immune from any benchings or other disciplinary measures becuase of the protection given by Sather. And as for Trotts resigning, how many NHL coaches can you name that have resigned their position?
it's not mess' fault that management is like this... and any coach with a set of balls would resign if management refuses to allow him to coach and discipline players... i would think trotts would be a guy like that... never seemed like a pushover to me...
But alas the rangers are no ordinary team and the you know what just keeps piling up.
Is Messier THE problem on this team? Not at all.
Is Messier A problem? Somewhat.
Is Messier part of the solution? No he's not.
NYR469 09-22-2003, 03:27 PM the most important thing about being a leader is ALWAYS doing what is best for the team, not whats best for mark messier or whats best for glen sather or brian leetch or anyone else, doing what is best for the RANGERS...
now i agree with you 110% that it is up to the coaches to lessen his ice time and if messier is asked to play more there is no doubt that he will play more and give it his all...
but while it is up to sather to limit his ice time, that doesn't mean that messier as the leader of the team can't volunteer for less time. there is no reason why he can't accept reality and say (for example) "we'd be better off if holik took the extra minutes in this situation"...
basically as the leader you take the "i'll do anything for the team" attitude and IF it applies accept the fact that sometimes the thing that needs to be done is to step aside and let someone else do more...
now that doesn't mean that messier should roll up in a ball in the corner and not do anything, it just means that there will be plenty of times where instead of doing things himself, it would be in the best interest of the team if mess encourages lindros or holik or nedved to do the job
i can only speak from my own experiences in playing... bloodied and banged up, when coach calls my number there ain't no way i'm not going in for him...
what kind of leader second guesses a coach when he asks him to go in...
trotts: mess, get in there...
mess: nah, i don't think so coach...
trotts: what?
mess: i'm a little peekish, send neddie...
as a leader, you want the ball... all the time... you want the game in your hands... i can't knock him for doing what the coaches want him to do and wanting to be that guy...
True Blue 09-23-2003, 03:31 AM it's not mess' fault that management is like this... and any coach with a set of balls would resign if management refuses to allow him to coach and discipline players... i would think trotts would be a guy like that... never seemed like a pushover to me...
Yeah? Then name me a coach or 2 who resigned?
JCProdigy 09-23-2003, 04:30 AM I honestly don't think Messier is being selfish per-say. I think he truly believes that he still has enough left in the tank to be a top 9 foward on this team. I just think he is sooo prideful and proud that he won't admit even to himself that he isn't the player that he was when he was here the first go around. It's pretty common for athletes who are fierce competitors to go on too long as we've seen it with many of the greats. Its sad really.
Oh and as far as the incident with him jumping on the ice,I don't know one way or the other of what actually happened. I've heard the story from fans on this board but I've never heard anything about it from players, management, Mess, or Trotts. To use Trott's facial expression as a determiner that he was confused is interesting since he pretty much had the same facial expression all year.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey/rangers/ny-rang283472291sep28,0,6293867.story?coll=ny-hockey-headlines
mess agrees to lesser ice time...
my point about the head coach is this... they may not resign or quit, but they do get fired for doing things that the management does not want them to do... trotts got fired for doing what management wanted him to do... the bottomline is trotts, for all the rings he has, was unable to stand up for himself or for what he believes that should be done... or he was completely uncapable of coaching at all...
True Blue 09-30-2003, 03:03 AM "He skated at practice yesterday between enforcer Richard Scott and Energizer bunny Ronald Petrovicky, neither of whom will ever be mistaken for a superstar. If there were someone else besides Glen Sather running the bench, perhaps Messier would have bristled"
So Messier is only capable of accepting reality from Sather? Perhaps if he accepted it last year, there would be no need to play any of our top 3 centers out of position and thus weakening the forward lines.
And I don't understand your point.
"my point about the head coach is this... they may not resign or quit, but they do get fired for doing things that the management does not want them to do... trotts got fired for doing what management wanted him to do... the bottomline is trotts, for all the rings he has, was unable to stand up for himself or for what he believes that should be done... "
In one breath you admit that NHL coaches do not quit or resign. You also admit that coaches get fired for doing things that management does not want them to do. You further admit that Trotts got canned for doing exactly what management wanted him to do. So where is the blame in your statement? You say that for all the rings that he has, that he did not stand up for the things that he believes as far as coaching goes. So what was he to do? Should he have quit or resigned? You admit that it does not work that way. Should he have goaded Sather into firing him? What is your point?
Jackson Ranger 09-30-2003, 03:37 AM In my opinion, Mess should have retired three years ago. The guy is washed up. His hands are gone, he is no longer physical and he just isn't the "leader" he was back in 1994.
Let's not forget that Lindros treated him like a rag doll during the playoffs in 1997! And as far as his leadership in 1994, don't also forget that there were three future head coaches (Lowe, MacTavish and Gilbert) playing for that team and another guy (Larmer) whose hockey knowledge is greater than all of the present Rangers combined.
And I still think Brian Noonan scored the game winning goal in Game 7 vs. Vancouver. ;)
Khelvan 09-30-2003, 05:43 AM The last time Messier was benched was by Keenan ('94 playoffs maybe?), and we all know what happened then. Keenan lost the locker room and the team just about mutinied because of Messier. The difference between Messier and just about every other player is that when the coach says "take a seat," most players take a seat. Messier just does what he wants.
THAT is why he is a problem. If he doesn't get what he wants, i.e. gets benched, he has in the past turned the team against the coach. Rumor has it something similar happened in Vancouver, but that is just rumor. In any event, no coach or GM would want that to happen to their team. The same leadership skills which are so strong on the ice can be turned to great detriment in the locker room should Messier not get his way.
With Mess, you have to take the good with the bad. The day a coach forces Mess to sit is the day the Rangers go from bad to worse. It would have been better for all around if he had never rejoined the Rangers.
-Khel
True Blue 09-30-2003, 06:29 AM THAT is why he is a problem.
That was true in the past, however it is NOT true today. Messier does not have run of the lockerroom. He may wear the "C", but his leadership days are long behind him. Don't get me wrong, he still has his "Mess pull", however he no longer dominates a lockerroom. That is why a new Captain is needed. One who is in touch with the current Rangers, not just those who played with him during his previous stint.
What is your point?
trotts should have done what was best for the team... he should have sat messier if he refused to accept the role he gave him... i don't think trotts ever did try to restrict his role... my point is... if the coach refuses to discipline him and/or management refuses to allow coaches to sit him, i don't think that is messier's problem... he is still the player... and until you tell me that a coach told messier you can't play on the top 2 lines anymore and he refused to not play on the top two lines, you can't blame mess... if trotts refused to curb messier's playing time eventhough he felt it needed to be then he deserved to be fired... if he didn't realize that mess' ice time needed to be curbed, then he deserved to be fired...
Keenan lost the locker room and the team just about mutinied because of Messier
when was this?... i don't remember this...
Let's not forget that Lindros treated him like a rag doll during the playoffs in 1997
Lindros was MVP that year, i believe... and he did that to pretty much everybody... i'm not going to say mark hasn't lost a step... but i think mess can still contribute just not as a top 2 line player...
So Messier is only capable of accepting reality from Sather?
i think this is just the first person to ask him to take a lesser role...
True Blue 09-30-2003, 10:55 AM "trotts should have done what was best for the team... he should have sat messier if he refused to accept the role he gave him... "
That would have never worked as all know that any coach could not do to Messier what they may have wanted to becuase of Sather.
"if the coach refuses to discipline him and/or management refuses to allow coaches to sit him, i don't think that is messier's problem... "
It may not be his problem, but he is the root of it.
"i think this is just the first person to ask him to take a lesser role..."
I think not. There has been talk that he should take a lesser role for 6 years now. I doubt that this is the first time that the subject has been broached to him.
I think not. There has been talk that he should take a lesser role for 6 years now.
talk by who?... us?... larry brooks?...
if trotts was not "allowed" to sit mess because of sather then he really needed to do it anyway and get himself fired or have a serious sitdown with glen...
but this is really just speculation on your part... i find it hard to believe that despite the fact that sather believed messier was done he refused to allow the coach to limit his ice time... the dolan's are stupid, but not that stupid to allow that to continue...
True Blue 10-01-2003, 03:01 AM get himself fired
Yeah, 'cause that happens all the time. Again, how many NHL coaches try to get themselves fired? Let's be a little realistic here.
"talk by who?... us?... larry brooks?..."
How about by everyone? By us? Yes. In the media for the past 6 years? Yes. But more importantly, how about by virtually every Rangers coach in every preseason interview (except Sather until recently).
"but this is really just speculation on your part... "
So given the above, it is hardly speculation.
"the dolan's are stupid, but not that stupid "
Want to rethink that?
Fletch 10-01-2003, 03:11 AM but likely was afraid to sit anyone making over a couple mil as a result of losing his job once the team slid. It's rare that a coach, whose team was winning, losing his job because certain stars. I believe Trots willingly played Messier.
|
|