Fleury lives the hype

First preseason game against the Isles, he saved 32 of 32 shots. faced a 14-shot first period onslaught and the game was scoreless. Very impressive.

:handclap: :handclap: :handclap:

First preseason game against the Isles, he saved 32 of 32 shots. faced a 14-shot first period onslaught and the game was scoreless. Very impressive.

:handclap: :handclap: :handclap:

I thought it was 22 of 23 shots?

I thought it was 22 of 23 shots?

It was 22 of 23 shots.

Great performance, but don't take it to mean anything except that he's on the right track.

I think Doghouse is correct, Fleury saved 22 of 23 shots. Still, a solid performance.

First preseason game against the Isles, he saved 32 of 32 shots. faced a 14-shot first period onslaught and the game was scoreless. Very impressive.

:handclap: :handclap: :handclap:
as spence already pointed out it was 22 of 23 and NYI won 1-0.

As I always said, Fleury is the #1 prospect in the world over Ruutu, Spezza, Pitkanen and Lehtonen!

This is a pure talent, already technically perfect with great anticipation!
He has alot of flaws still, he isn't good puck handling and he can be caught cheating alot short side. He needs to get bigger and stronger also. He is fairly weak blocker side, which is usually shot side.

and that's of course why he stunk on his first pro game, because all these pros couldn't detect all his flaws...
:rolleyes:

Oh wait he had a 1.00 GAA....?

OH wait he had a 3.36 GAA last year, If you are trying to state you know more about his game then me you should just quit HF, I have season tickets to the Eagles....where he played the last two years.

OH wait he had a 3.36 GAA last year, If you are trying to state you know more about his game then me you should just quit HF, I have season tickets to the Eagles....where he played the last two years.

Good post. So, you don't want him back? he's that bad? I should say, this is not the scouting report(s) I'd heard...

Good post. So, you don't want him back? he's that bad? I should say, this is not the scouting report(s) I'd heard...
I want him back, he is a great goaltender just Pittsburgh fans are over hyping him and turing him into an overated prospect. They think is invincible which is untrue. Remember this....I was the first poster on this site to start hyping Fleuy, about a year and a half ago I was posting threads on him, last year at the start of the year I was saying he would move way up in the rankings into top 3 (at the time he was ranked around 10th) I know his strengths and his weaknesses and his strengths over weigh his weaknesses.

and that's of course why he stunk on his first pro game, because all these pros couldn't detect all his flaws...
:rolleyes:

Oh wait he had a 1.00 GAA....?

That is an ignorant statement. It's the pre-season. He's playing against maybe 10 NHL regulars at the most who aren't trying their hardest and he lets in 1 goal. Just because of that doesn't mean he has no flaws.
I agree with that JasonMacIsaac guy. He's a great talent but he's not perfect right now. He still has to hone his skills a little.

As with every prospect.....................:rolleyes:

I agree with what Servo said.:handclap:

As I always said, Fleury is the #1 prospect in the world over Ruutu, Spezza, Pitkanen and Lehtonen!

This is a pure talent, already technically perfect with great anticipation!


Yes of course he is the #1 prospect, he stopped 22 shots and lost a preseason game. That crap Lehtonen won some silly final series and was elected twice to be the best goaltender in his league...

Naturally Fleury is the top goalie prospect...no question about it.

EDIT: I think the blackhawks fans who saw Ruutu play his first exhibition game last night would also have a thing to say about the order of these prospects.

In terms of skill I have Lehtonen ahead of Fleury, If Lehtonen cathces on to the rink size fairly quick I think he could lead Atlanta to the playoffs this year or next, whenever he gets the chance.

He has alot of flaws still, he isn't good puck handling and he can be caught cheating alot short side. He needs to get bigger and stronger also. He is fairly weak blocker side, which is usually shot side.

I think that's a pretty accurate assessment.

In terms of skill I have Lehtonen ahead of Fleury, If Lehtonen cathces on to the rink size fairly quick I think he could lead Atlanta to the playoffs this year or next, whenever he gets the chance.

Jason, too often we have to many hypes about a prospect or a young player. The young Theodore had a fantastic marvelous second half-season in 2001-2002 and most of Montreal fans already compared him to Roy. We have to keep feet grounded.

Anyway, you talked about Fleury and Lehtonen. Where is DiPietro in your evaluation?

ps: I spent 10 great days last December in Sydney during the World Junior.

I didn't see dipietro much but when I seen him vs NJ he looked lost, trying to handle the puck better then Brodeur. I use a ucsu site for most my goaltending prospect views. I see him with great agility in the net, nice glove and good puck handling skills. I just go by others opinions on him.

http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~norrisdt/bio/dipietro.html

DiPietro was very good in the last half of the Pens game on Friday.

DiPietro was very good in the last half of the Pens game on Friday.

Yeah he was, he robbed us quite a few times.

I doubt it's the Pens fans that are making Fleury overrated...it's probably the fact that he went first overall and is touted as being the best goalie to come out of the draft in 10 years...

Fleury will be amazing, but I hardly expect big things from him this year.

OH wait he had a 3.36 GAA last year, If you are trying to state you know more about his game then me you should just quit HF, I have season tickets to the Eagles....where he played the last two years.
Actually, I've never hyped Fleury.
I've always said for instance that Lehtonen is a superior prospect as of now.
But when we are amazed by his first pro game and you come here with a post stating about a hundred flaws, you're the one looking ridiculous.
I've never said he was perfect, of course at 18 he has a lot to work on. But hey, he had a great game, recognize that without feeling obliged to throw flaw after flaw.

Folks need to just take things day by day. The same people that are proclaiming him the next great goalie will probably be the ones that call him a bust if he falls flat on his face should he make the NHL team. There's no question this kid has talent, but 22 saves in a preseason game isn't what I'd call "living the hype".

Preach!

High five!

Yeahhhhh, High-five, I won't leave you hangin.

Preach! High five!

(Even though it's totally not fitting here)

HIYO!

;)

In terms of skill I have Lehtonen ahead of Fleury, If Lehtonen cathces on to the rink size fairly quick I think he could lead Atlanta to the playoffs this year or next, whenever he gets the chance.

So you have season tickets for Jokerit also?

No, but I seen him play numerous times at the WJC.

So you have season tickets for Jokerit also?
And please stop crying becasue I rate Lehtonen ahead of fleury, It makes you look like a moron.

And please stop crying becasue I rate Lehtonen ahead of fleury, It makes you look like a moron.

I think most people are not crying over it, but laughing. :lol:

Well, while I 90% of the time disagree with JMI, I rate Lehtonen over Fleury as of now.
It all could change of course, but as of right now, Lehtonen is better.

I'll chime in with the "Lehtonen > Fleury" crowd, too...I've only seen him play at the WJC, and he was far superior there. Lehtonen also one the MVP in the SM-Liiga...I'll wait until Fleury performs well over the course of the season in a men's league before proclaiming him king.

And no, the game against the Islanders doesn't count. It's just one game. Hell, Mike Fountain made his NHL debut in a 42-save regular season shutout vs. New Jersey. His career sure went places, didn't it?

It counts as what it is. A preseason game against professional talent.

i think the whole thread is a riot. The kid has ONE pre season game and he lives up to the hype. Hillarious. He is going to need a full season of solid hockey at the next level to be on the same page as Lehtonen at this point in their careers. I think you would be better served comparing him to Rick Dipietro. Both taken tops and both way over hyped but both have the same potential to be great young goalies in a couple of years. Of course, both have the exact same potential to be busts but heck why even consider that. I mean, the guy does have a gaa of 1.00 after one whole game and everything, I say we scratch Roy's name off of all of his trophies and write Fluery's name in there today.

Lehtonen/Fluery/Dipietro, all of them have yet to do anything in the NHL so none of them have lived up to their hype yet. Until they get there these kind of threads serve on very good purpose, they are fun to laugh at.

You're such a drag.

Easy for you to say tom, crow mike and I are working on your new friend.

Yours truly,

Joel.

It counts as what it is. A preseason game against professional talent.

:handclap:


:rolleyes: At a lot of other stuff.

We call MAF not playing against men...But of course, all of our heroes, aka the greatest player ever, Sidney Crosby is playing against giants and still owning.:dunno::rolleyes:

Anyways, Fleury is playing tonight in Halifax against Boston. Boston's lineup is this: http://www.bostonbruins.com/pressbox/pressreleases.asp?id=902. So he is playing a pretty close to NHL team tonight. So I would say tonight is his first real test of his young career.

So far it is 1-1, Samsonov just tied it up a minute ago (as I was typing this).

HOW DARE YOU BRING LOGIC INTO THESE HALLOWED BOARDS REGARDING THE PLAY OF THE FUTURE GOD OF HOCKEY CROSBY!!!!

SNOKE ABD BRIMSTONE SHALL RAIN ON YOU FOR YOUR PETULANCE!!!!!!

Stop trying to make sense of things Mr. It isn't welcome.

Sorry about that!:blush:

:D

Through 2 Fleury has 17 saves on 18 shots.

3-1 Pens

B's just got another. Murray on the PP from Thornton.

Fleury just won the game, 3-2. He stopped 27 of 29 shots.

The Bruins had Thornton, Murray, Rolston, Samsonov and I think Knuble in their lineup.

He showed he can hold his own so far, but it is just two games. Right now it looks like he has a good chance to make the team.

Uh Oh, the dude gave up TWO goals in this one. His gaa just went up significantly. I bet he is a bust.

Just kidding, it's obvious the guy is the best goalie to ever play the game. He is living up to the hype for sure now. After two whole games and only giving up three goals he is better than all of the other goalies so far in the pre season.

;)

He's earning a spot on the starting roster. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well said Jacobv2. :handclap:

I really hope they send him back. These preseason games are not indicitive of what he will face come mid-October. It's going to be ugly in Pittsburgh this season, and letting Fleury continue his development in the Q is still the best course of action.

That said, he is obviously impressive and has a long career ahead of him. I just hope the Pens take a look at what happened in the big apple in terms of stunting a goalies development.

I'm not sure what the best thing for him is.
It's really an individul thing.
There's no general rule.
Olzcyk was quoted as saying something like "he's pushing others, that's good, that's what he's here for", something around that which makes me think he's junior-bound.
But at the same time, stoning Thornton, Murray and Samsonov makes you think he has nothing to do in the Q.

I can only tell you what I have seen happen to a couple of "potential star" goalies over the past several years and then tell you why I think it is important that Fluery spend a couple of years down on the farm.

The Kings have had two stellar young goalies come into their system during this time period and the comparison with Fluery's situation is very close. The Kings at the time weren't very good, especially on D and the Pens don't look to be much better at this point in time.

Rob Stauber had just won the Hobie baker when he came to the Kings. He was the best young goalie in the world at the time as some hockey journalists would tell you including Don Cherry. (outside of the NHL) He had set many records during his time in Min and was technically exceptional. He came to the Kings and due to the fact that they didn't have anyone else near his level of talent they rushed him into the line up. I was in the forum club for the pre game team dinner/meeting (only the players who weren't playing that night actually ate) the night he first came to the team. I talked to the kid and he was a nice guy who looked confident and ready. I had a chance to do the same thing about two months later and he was a different guy. The guy had more rubber flying at this chin then a hollywood hooker on most nights and it didn't take long for him to lose his stellar positional play in favor of adopting more unorthodox habits in an attempt to try and keep the puck out of the net. There were many nights that he would face 35 or more shots without any real D plan in front of him. He left the Kings to Buff and is out of the NHL in less than 6 years.

Jamie Storr is another good example. At the time he was one of the highest drafted goalies in NHL history. (He was drafted 7th over all I think. Remember i said ONE of) He was thought of as THE goalie of the future. The Kings also worked him into the line up waaaay to early and he too went from stud to dud in no time. He would show you flashes of absolute brilliance on some nights and then be a pure goat on others. He was given every opportunity to become a great NHL goalie EXCEPT the time he needed to develope his game at the pro level. He is playing in Russia this year with the HOPE of making an NHL comeback. He isn't even 29.

I think that Fluery has better talent then both of these players. I also think that he will be going to a team that will be lucky to earn 50 points this year even with a decent veteran netminder. Why subject your most talented player to this kind of batism by fire? Why the rush? Is it best for his developement or is it just what a few clueless homer fans want to see so they have something to be excited about. If you are one of the people who just won't be happy unless Fluery starts the season in the NHL ask yourself this question, if someone was buying you a free meal and nobody but you would know where you ate, are you one of those people who would rather pull into Carls jr for that instant gratification for a burger or would you rather go to the best resturaunt in town, sit down and order a truly great meal with all of the trimmings?

I am not saying that a good burger isn't great most of the time (just an example, it could be a burrito etc, whatever fast food you like) but wouldn't you rather wait for the better meal? Wouldn't you rather give the kid time to work out all of the bugs in his game and build your pro team so that he doesn't HAVE to be your saviour every night instead of relying on an 18 year old to go out and try and win you the 20 to 25 games that you are going to win this year and take a chance on his ruining his confidence?

Sure the kid is a rare talent and he MIGHT be able to step into the NHL game and earn a spot right away on a bad team like the Pens have this year but at what cost? Why take a chance with him. For every (although not that many goalies) example you can give me of a young player that stepped into the league and was great right away, I can show you DOZENS of examples of "Potential Superstars" that have washed out.

Why take a chance at ruining this kids chance at being the best in the game so that a few homers will have something to focus on this year besides how bad their current team is. I am not trying to bash the Pens, I think that they have been an awsome team and that with 66 on the ice you never know what will happen, I am saying that if you are going to rely on 66 and an 18 year old kid playing the hardest position on the ice to try and win you the cup then I can say that you are being nearsighted and asking way too much of two players.

I can only tell you what I have seen happen to a couple of "potential star" goalies over the past several years and then tell you why I think it is important that Fluery spend a couple of years down on the farm.

The Kings have had two stellar young goalies come into their system during this time period and the comparison with Fluery's situation is very close. The Kings at the time weren't very good, especially on D and the Pens don't look to be much better at this point in time.

Rob Stauber had just won the Hobie baker when he came to the Kings. He was the best young goalie in the world at the time as some hockey journalists would tell you including Don Cherry. (outside of the NHL) He had set many records during his time in Min and was technically exceptional. He came to the Kings and due to the fact that they didn't have anyone else near his level of talent they rushed him into the line up. I was in the forum club for the pre game team dinner/meeting (only the players who weren't playing that night actually ate) the night he first came to the team. I talked to the kid and he was a nice guy who looked confident and ready. I had a chance to do the same thing about two months later and he was a different guy. The guy had more rubber flying at this chin then a hollywood hooker on most nights and it didn't take long for him to lose his stellar positional play in favor of adopting more unorthodox habits in an attempt to try and keep the puck out of the net. There were many nights that he would face 35 or more shots without any real D plan in front of him. He left the Kings to Buff and is out of the NHL in less than 6 years.

Jamie Storr is another good example. At the time he was one of the highest drafted goalies in NHL history. (He was drafted 7th over all I think. Remember i said ONE of) He was thought of as THE goalie of the future. The Kings also worked him into the line up waaaay to early and he too went from stud to dud in no time. He would show you flashes of absolute brilliance on some nights and then be a pure goat on others. He was given every opportunity to become a great NHL goalie EXCEPT the time he needed to develope his game at the pro level. He is playing in Russia this year with the HOPE of making an NHL comeback. He isn't even 29.

I think that Fluery has better talent then both of these players. I also think that he will be going to a team that will be lucky to earn 50 points this year even with a decent veteran netminder. Why subject your most talented player to this kind of batism by fire? Why the rush? Is it best for his developement or is it just what a few clueless homer fans want to see so they have something to be excited about. If you are one of the people who just won't be happy unless Fluery starts the season in the NHL ask yourself this question, if someone was buying you a free meal and nobody but you would know where you ate, are you one of those people who would rather pull into Carls jr for that instant gratification for a burger or would you rather go to the best resturaunt in town, sit down and order a truly great meal with all of the trimmings?

I am not saying that a good burger isn't great most of the time (just an example, it could be a burrito etc, whatever fast food you like) but wouldn't you rather wait for the better meal? Wouldn't you rather give the kid time to work out all of the bugs in his game and build your pro team so that he doesn't HAVE to be your saviour every night instead of relying on an 18 year old to go out and try and win you the 20 to 25 games that you are going to win this year and take a chance on his ruining his confidence?

Sure the kid is a rare talent and he MIGHT be able to step into the NHL game and earn a spot right away on a bad team like the Pens have this year but at what cost? Why take a chance with him. For every (although not that many goalies) example you can give me of a young player that stepped into the league and was great right away, I can show you DOZENS of examples of "Potential Superstars" that have washed out.

Why take a chance at ruining this kids chance at being the best in the game so that a few homers will have something to focus on this year besides how bad their current team is. I am not trying to bash the Pens, I think that they have been an awsome team and that with 66 on the ice you never know what will happen, I am saying that if you are going to rely on 66 and an 18 year old kid playing the hardest position on the ice to try and win you the cup then I can say that you are being nearsighted and asking way too much of two players.
Sorry your post is throrough and all, but we're not talking about Storr or anybody else. We're talking about M-A Fleury, and he, as an individual is different from any other.
I don't compare to history.
It's a matter of HIM being ready, not if Storr or any other goalie was at the time.

Fleury, with Cape Breton has a good chance at going to the memorial cup, with Pittsburgh he will get 20 games this season as the backup, not enough for his development.

Fleury, with Cape Breton has a good chance at going to the memorial cup, with Pittsburgh he will get 20 games this season as the backup, not enough for his development.

How do you know? It's not like Caron is that much better than him.

To me, he's earned a tryout if nothing else. Give him 10 games, see how he does. If he's playing well and picking up wins, why send him back? And if he's struggling, getting shelled, then we do send him back.

You absolutely can NOT send him back after he's been the best goalie all through training camp. That would be just stupid.

And what would be the message for him?
You outplay the others? It doesn't matter, you're young.
This is the way the Pens management screwed up with Milan Kraft.

How do you know? It's not like Caron is that much better than him.

To me, he's earned a tryout if nothing else. Give him 10 games, see how he does. If he's playing well and picking up wins, why send him back? And if he's struggling, getting shelled, then we do send him back.

You absolutely can NOT send him back after he's been the best goalie all through training camp. That would be just stupid.

A great point, and one that I've put forth before.

Our incumbant starter has 24 NHL games under his belt. Our veteran backup, by all rights, shouldn't even be with this franchise anymore. If Fleury were to win a spot (and so far, he has), he would not be warming the bench holding a clipboard. He would be playing, and possibly starting.

Like Jacob said, what's the harm in getting him signed now (remember the slight possibility of early free agency for MAF, should he be tempted), giving him his ten NHL games, and going from there? Caron was given a chance and has performed better than anyone would've predicted seven or eight months ago. I think it's only fair to extend Fleury that same courtesy.

For what it's worth, the Pens will play more conservative defensively this season than at any other point I can remember. That may not necessarily translate into better defense, but Fleury probably won't see as much action as he would've a few seasons ago.

What I would like to see Pits do is keep Fleury up for 5 games or so, let him play a few then watch some as well let him know what it is going to take to make it to the bigs. Then I would send him back, thing is if he goes back he. (A) Will play for Cape Breton who is the hands on favorite in the QMJHL to make it to the Memorial Cup, (B) he will get to play for Canada again at the WJHC, and he will get to play in the all-star game against the Russians...all which is great experience for a young goalie. Though I think Fleury would do fine if kept up this year the last thing you want is your future #1 goalie to be kept up on a really bad team which could hurt his confidence, Aubin, Caron are capable for this season and let Fleury get the time in the WJHC and a potnetial Memorial Cup.

Fleury at most will play 40 games will the Pens. If he goes down to Cape Breton he will 60 games. This doesn't include the playoffs. Cape Breton is a very good team and they will go far into the playoffs. This can't be said for the Pens because they won't make the playoffs. Fleury will play in the World Juniors also.

You're missing the point. There's no harm in giving him at least a tryout, say 5-10 games, and going from there. If he's only average, or below average, and/or not earning the necessary playing time, we can send him back to Cape Breton.

It's not like, if he makes the team, he HAS to stay with us for the entire year.

I say that even if he does great that you need to send him down for a couple of years. What would it hurt to let the kid dominate in the AHL for a few years? I don't think it would do anything except build his confidence. That is the most valuable asset a young goalie can have isn't it?

I am sorry to have tried to use actual logic with you. I won't let it happen again. The FACT is that Storr and Stauber were also both hailed as great goalies but I forgot that Fluery is better than Roy and that the usual time needed for developement and timing doesn't apply to him. Sorry about forgetting that there has never been his equal nor will their ever be. I should have remembered that he is the best goalie of all time and then realized that he won't need any time to develope. After reading your stunning report on him I have changed my mind. I say, let him be your starter, heck, it will give him tons of experience and with him in net you simply can't lose!

Amazing.

You're missing the point. There's no harm in giving him at least a tryout, say 5-10 games, and going from there. If he's only average, or below average, and/or not earning the necessary playing time, we can send him back to Cape Breton.

It's not like, if he makes the team, he HAS to stay with us for the entire year.

Not very many get it, but what else is new?

Fleury can make the team, then go back.

He can also make the team, the jump, and become and NHL goalie.

We'll see. At this time, he has earned at least those 5-10 games.

I am sorry to have tried to use actual logic with you. I won't let it happen again. The FACT is that Storr and Stauber were also both hailed as great goalies but I forgot that Fluery is better than Roy and that the usual time needed for developement and timing doesn't apply to him. Sorry about forgetting that there has never been his equal nor will their ever be. I should have remembered that he is the best goalie of all time and then realized that he won't need any time to develope. After reading your stunning report on him I have changed my mind. I say, let him be your starter, heck, it will give him tons of experience and with him in net you simply can't lose!

Amazing.

What's illogical about giving the guy a freakin' tryout?

I must be in the Bizarro World.

People really are interpreting this topic really badly.

I don't see a single post saying he's better than Roy.
I don't see a single post saying he's gonna do anything in the NHL this season.

It's only about how he's done in the pre-season, but I guess that's not allowed because he's hyped :dunno:

First question, why is everybody crapping on MacIsaac?!! He's always been one of the first guys to provide info where he can and help out whenever he can. He has his opinion and if it differs from yours does it make it wrong? The guy has seen Fleury a ton over the last two years, and being from Cape Breton I've seen him a good number of times myself, so he obviously can speak from experience on what this kids strengths and weaknesses are. Cut him some slack and give him a break man. It's a discussion, not a debate or insult festival.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with giving Fleury a tryout of 5 - 10 games but, "in my opinion", I don't think it is in Pittsburgh's best interest to allow two of it's best young goalies to split time because it does very little for their development other than promote competition between one another. If you want to give Caron a crack at the number one job, give him a crack at it and let him give it his best and he may be outstanding. But as for Fleury, regardless of how well he does in preseason I really don't think he's mentally ready for the NHL. He's got a lot of talent and I would never deny that but if he goes back to Cape Breton, and I've argued this before, he gets a great chance to improve mentally in big games because Cape Breton has a strong team and a good shot at the Memorial Cup barring injuries. Let them both come along at their own pace. Fleury may be different from past goalies who were brought up at a young age and had their development destroyed by it but can you honestly say you want to risk that? Especially if your a fan of Pittsburgh and hockey in general.

The kid is good, really good, and he's very young. Wait for 2 years and you'll have him for the next 15. Don't rush him.

You're missing the point. There's no harm in giving him at least a tryout, say 5-10 games, and going from there. If he's only average, or below average, and/or not earning the necessary playing time, we can send him back to Cape Breton.

It's not like, if he makes the team, he HAS to stay with us for the entire year.
Giving him a tryout isn't bad but I think if the Pens keep him for more than 10 games that's a problem.

Even if he does play well he will only play at most 40 games. In Cape Breton he wll play 50-60 games. Cape Breton has a really good team and it would be better if he got experience in the playoffs. Pittsburgh is not going to make the playoffs. He would also be playing in the World Juniors.

Well, the argument here is that Fleury is ready, especially mentally, for the NHL.

He obviously has the talent.

The Pens need to decide if he can develop better in the NHL or the Q. Will it do Fleury much good to waste a year stoning younger and less developed players?

He may be ready for the NHL, that is something the Pens will have to decide.

Fleury has earned at least a tryout by his play so far. He has been the Penguins best goalie.

Some are also under the indication that Fleury won't get much playing time. Well, if he is the best goalie, he is going to be the starter.

If Fleury is on the team, we won't be pulling any Roloson/Fernandez stuff. Fleury will likely play. Otherwise there is no point in keeping him.

The FACT is that Storr and Stauber were also both hailed as great goalies but I forgot that Fluery is better than Roy and that the usual time needed for developement and timing doesn't apply to him.
Amazing.
In the real world , Rob Stauber was never, ever hailed as a potentially great goalie. Borderline NHL'r was all most people was ever thought he would be.
With respect to Storr, highly touted, but never was there the degree of upside people think that Fleury has.
The remainder of your points have some merit.

Stauber won the hobie baker and set many records while in the NCAA. The Kings were offered the number one pick in the draft for him the year he turned pro. I am not saying that he or Storr was in the same league as Fluery I am saying that they were both highly touted prospects who were rushed into the NHL and then busted. It doesn't mean that Fluery will, but I would ask you to show me ONE rookie goalie who came into the league as an 18 year old on an awful team that turned out to be a truly great goalie.

Tom Barasso

I would hardly say that he came into a worse team than the Pens will be this year. That team was allot better. also the age difference between the three is pretty big.

Stauber won the hobie baker and set many records while in the NCAA. The Kings were offered the number one pick in the draft for him the year he turned pro. .
All sorts of guys won the Hobey Baker & were not highly thought of before or after.
With respect to point 2, I say BS. I have followed hockey fo a very long time & ihave absoloutly no recollection of Stauber EVER been highly thought of. If you find me any sort of confirmation that this is true,I fold my tent

People who wants the pens to give Fleury a try out are asking this question : why not give him 5-10 games ?

To which I'll reply : what is there to gain for the pens to play him on what is in most people opinion the worst team in the NHL ?

Even Brodeur would be hard pressed to bring this team into the playoffs. What about a 19 years old kid who has no experience in the NHL ?

Fleury could possibly be ready but you guys should ask yourselves these questions :

1. Can Fleury's development be stunted if he goes back to the Q even if he's almost NHL ready ?

2. How much is there to gain by playing him 10 games or more compared to the risk there is to play him against the best players in the world on a bottom 5 team in the NHL ?

Is there even a goalie coach in Pittsburgh ?

Send the kid back to his junior team. Let him build his confidence. There's not enough to gain compared to the risk.

I say that even if he does great that you need to send him down for a couple of years. What would it hurt to let the kid dominate in the AHL for a few years? I don't think it would do anything except build his confidence. That is the most valuable asset a young goalie can have isn't it?

I agree that he should be in the Q this year. Even if we keep him for 10 games, or whatever the limit is, I think we'd still need to put Aubin on waivers (right?). In that case, he could be picked up and we'd need a back-up onc Fleury went back to the Q.

I'm impressed by Fleury's performance, but the only reason I see for keeping him is to sell tickets. Sadly, I think that may be the determining factor.

S L

Is there even a goalie coach in Pittsburgh ?

Lorne Molleken and Gilles Meloche (but hes primarily a scout).

I am sorry to have tried to use actual logic with you. I won't let it happen again. The FACT is that Storr and Stauber were also both hailed as great goalies but I forgot that Fluery is better than Roy and that the usual time needed for developement and timing doesn't apply to him. Sorry about forgetting that there has never been his equal nor will their ever be. I should have remembered that he is the best goalie of all time and then realized that he won't need any time to develope. After reading your stunning report on him I have changed my mind. I say, let him be your starter, heck, it will give him tons of experience and with him in net you simply can't lose!

Amazing.


Great post, but it would've been better if you
a.) compared Fleury to Barasso
b.) pointed out that Fleury > Brodeur
c.) argued that he was a much better prospect than Lehtonen because of his showing at the WJC, and also because Lehtonen plays on one of the best teams in his league.

Just some tips for next time...

S L

First question, why is everybody crapping on MacIsaac?!!

Nobody's 'crapping' on him (I don't think), some folks are just disagreeing with him. He didn't really state his opinion very well and skipped out on some questions folks had for him.

Even if he does play well he will only play at most 40 games. In Cape Breton he wll play 50-60 games.

Well first of all, I'd say that 40 games isn't bad at all. It'll be first-hand experience against the best players in the world. But that's only IF he can compete, if he is showing that he can regularly perform to the standards of a normal NHL starter. But that's 40 games minimum, any less and I think he'd be better served in Cape Breton. That'll be 40 games that he can build on for the next year, and maybe up the total to 50. But we're getting way ahead of ourselves here, that's all best case scenario. I just don't see how you can state the things you did as a fact.

But it's not etched in stone that he will play NO MORE than 40 games. Caron can be sent to the minors if he's not getting playing time.

Again, best case scenario.

To which I'll reply : what is there to gain for the pens to play him on what is in most people opinion the worst team in the NHL ?

Even Brodeur would be hard pressed to bring this team into the playoffs. What about a 19 years old kid who has no experience in the NHL ?

Who's talking about the playoffs? Or Brodeur for that matter? It's only ten games.

Is there even a goalie coach in Pittsburgh ?

There are two.

Send the kid back to his junior team. Let him build his confidence. There's not enough to gain compared to the risk.

Let's say he does earn a job on the starting roster (which is exactly what he's doing), he starts a game and gets shelled. 5 goals against and gets yanked in the second. He gets another start a week later, gives up 4 goals and gets the loss. The Penguins decide he's not ready, and send him back to Cape Breton. Where's the harm? This kid probably had a number of 4-5 goal games last season in the Q, I don't see how a couple against the best players in the world are going to all of a sudden kill his confidence. Experience is experience. He got a taste of the NHL and now he knows that it isn't as easy as it looks. That's motivation to work harder, train smarter, and be ready for next season.

Who's talking about the playoffs? Or Brodeur for that matter? It's only ten games.

Try reading between the lines :

How can you expect a 19 year old kid with no NHL experience not to get shelled with the pens next season when even the best goalie in the league right now would be hard pressed to look good with the Pens this season (speculation but still a more than fair assumption).

Brodeur has nothing to do in this debate I merely used him as a way to explain what I clumsily wanted to say. I know I'm not Shakespeare but was it so damn hard to understand ?


There are two.

I wasn't trying to be a smart ass I was just asking a question. Beside someone had already answered that question with more details.


Let's say he does earn a job on the starting roster (which is exactly what he's doing), he starts a game and gets shelled. 5 goals against and gets yanked in the second. He gets another start a week later, gives up 4 goals and gets the loss. The Penguins decide he's not ready, and send him back to Cape Breton. Where's the harm? This kid probably had a number of 4-5 goal games last season in the Q, I don't see how a couple against the best players in the world are going to all of a sudden kill his confidence. Experience is experience. He got a taste of the NHL and now he knows that it isn't as easy as it looks. That's motivation to work harder, train smarter, and be ready for next season.

The rangers and islanders coaching staff probably said that too when they decided to put their 18 year old rookie goaltenders in the net. Eh where's the harm ? His confidence shouldn't be hurt. After all he'll be playing against the best players in the world. And those two teens had much better teams in front of them.

I'm not saying Fleury's developement would automatically be stunted if he was to play in the NHL this year but history is against you on this one.

Another question : is some "experience" and the knowledge that the NHL isn't as easy as it looks worth the risk of seeing history repeating itself ? Those 4-5 goals in one game is far from the worst case scenario. What about 4-5 goals in 1 period and a half and the kid being pulled out of the 2-3 games he played ? He's 19 years old and he's had a lot of hype and media exposure. There's a lot of pressure on this kid as 1st draft pick overall. Why add even more by giving him the keys to the town after a few pre-season games ?

So you say he has earned his spots after 2-3 good AHL caliber pre-season games ? Send him back to the Q, let him do some damage, let him come back for one more training camp, one year older, more confident and experienced. If he dominates those pre-season games again then he'll have earned it.

My opinion is that it is asking too much of a teenager to play as a starter in the NHL while his development would go just as fast in the Q.

He(JasonMcIsaac) didn't really state his opinion very well and skipped out on some questions folks had for him.


Talking about not answering questions ...

You chose to ignore some questions and parts of my post too.

We don't EXPECT him to not get shelled.
So far he doesn't.
He has amazing numbers.
It's only preseason, yes, buyt when you face Boston's first line and you don't get shelled, why would he get shelled in his first NHL games either?
Until he gets beaten badly, why would we make the assumption he's going to get burnt?
He has to prove he's not up to the task before we make that conclusion for him.
And he'll know that he was send back for hockey purposes and work on his game, not for "age" purposes.

"Shelled" refers to the amount of shots that he will face over the course of the season. So yes, to date he has been in two whole games and of course you can tell what the entire season will be like based on what happens in the preseason.

And isn't it obvious that it is an issue of experience with his game and his mental ability to handle the NHL game as the reason that he needs to spend time in the minors. He will sit the majority of the season in the NHL. Why not let him actually play in a pro league where he will be your starting goalie and get allot of ice time instea

never mind. why bother, you are right, he is a god and is going to be the first 18 year old goalie to lead his hapless team to the cup. Sorry for trying.

We don't EXPECT him to not get shelled.
So far he doesn't.
He has amazing numbers.
It's only preseason, yes, buyt when you face Boston's first line and you don't get shelled, why would he get shelled in his first NHL games either?Until he gets beaten badly, why would we make the assumption he's going to get burnt?


Yes it is only pre-season and the few saves he made against Big Joe's line doesn't matter all that much. Most teams are still not fully used to the NHL game speed, not giving full effort, keeping their energy for the real thing, etc.

Why would he get shelled in his first NHL games ? Because the games will be significantly different come october. You just can't have those expectations that he won't get shelled just because he faced Big Joe's line in a pre-season game and did well can you ?


He has to prove he's not up to the task before we make that conclusion for him. And he'll know that he was send back for hockey purposes and work on his game, not for "age" purposes.


You see I view it the other way around. He has to prove he's up to the task first. Especially since he's a goalie. And 2 pre-season games just doesn't do it for me (even one against Thornton-Murray). That's not enough. 5 wouldn't be enough neither. There's no way in my mind Fleury can earn a spot this pre-season. Let him go back to the Q, dominate, come back , get another solid training camp and pre-season after another long summer of hard work. Now that's earning your spot. Not playing 4-5 AHL caliber games and doing well in each of thos and being spoon fed the goaltender starting spot just under the nose of Caron.

Money purposes ? Now you're making it sound like the Pens would be screwing him of a roster spot that he has rightfully earned. Please. That's not what I call earning.

How can you expect a 19 year old kid with no NHL experience not to get shelled with the pens next season when even the best goalie in the league right now would be hard pressed to look good with the Pens this season (speculation but still a more than fair assumption).
I do expect it quite frankly. But that's what I keep saying, if he gets shelled in his first couple games, you send him down. Is it really that hard to understand?

The rangers and islanders coaching staff probably said that too when they decided to put their 18 year old rookie goaltenders in the net. Eh where's the harm ? His confidence shouldn't be hurt. After all he'll be playing against the best players in the world. And those two teens had much better teams in front of them.
There WAS harm in those situations because they didn't send the goalies back when they clearly showed they weren't ready. Do you get it? I feel like I'm conversing with a brick wall here. If Fleury faulters, which you and I both seem to think is very likely, we simply send him to Cape Breton with a pat on the back and tell him we'll see him in a year.

Another question : is some "experience" and the knowledge that the NHL isn't as easy as it looks worth the risk of seeing history repeating itself ? Those 4-5 goals in one game is far from the worst case scenario. What about 4-5 goals in 1 period and a half and the kid being pulled out of the 2-3 games he played ? He's 19 years old and he's had a lot of hype and media exposure. There's a lot of pressure on this kid as 1st draft pick overall. Why add even more by giving him the keys to the town after a few pre-season games ?

Are you referring to Blackburn and DiPietro? They werent ruined by playing 2-3 games when they weren't ready, they were ruined by playing 20-30 games when they weren't ready, and the rest of the season on the bench. There is a HUGE difference in the scenarios I've proposed and the ones you're referring to, huge.

So you say he has earned his spots after 2-3 good AHL caliber pre-season games ? Send him back to the Q, let him do some damage, let him come back for one more training camp, one year older, more confident and experienced. If he dominates those pre-season games again then he'll have earned it.

My opinion is that it is asking too much of a teenager to play as a starter in the NHL while his development would go just as fast in the Q.

But why? He's played great thus far, in camp, in practice, and in preseason games. What if he can win us some games? Like I said, with a brief tryout, there is absolutely no harm in seeing just how ready he really is. He could do pretty well, it's unlikely, but he has shown NOTHING thus far to say he won't do well. You're just comparing him to other goaltenders to get the point across. Fleury is not Dipietro. I'm not saying he's better, or worse, he's just different.

Talking about not answering questions ...

You chose to ignore some questions and parts of my post too.

Did I answer them all now? I feel like I'm simply repeating myself.

"Shelled" refers to the amount of shots that he will face over the course of the season. So yes, to date he has been in two whole games and of course you can tell what the entire season will be like based on what happens in the preseason.

But we WON'T let his 2-3 games thus far dictate the entire season. That's the whole point.

:dunno:

"Shelled" refers to the amount of shots that he will face over the course of the season. So yes, to date he has been in two whole games and of course you can tell what the entire season will be like based on what happens in the preseason.

And isn't it obvious that it is an issue of experience with his game and his mental ability to handle the NHL game as the reason that he needs to spend time in the minors. He will sit the majority of the season in the NHL. Why not let him actually play in a pro league where he will be your starting goalie and get allot of ice time instea

never mind. why bother, you are right, he is a god and is going to be the first 18 year old goalie to lead his hapless team to the cup. Sorry for trying.
OK will you please stop your BS??????
I never said he was god. I said he deserved the right to try out for ten games.
Could you please ****ing read????

Yes it is only pre-season and the few saves he made against Big Joe's line doesn't matter all that much. Most teams are still not fully used to the NHL game speed, not giving full effort, keeping their energy for the real thing, etc.

Why would he get shelled in his first NHL games ? Because the games will be significantly different come october. You just can't have those expectations that he won't get shelled just because he faced Big Joe's line in a pre-season game and did well can you ?



You see I view it the other way around. He has to prove he's up to the task first. Especially since he's a goalie. And 2 pre-season games just doesn't do it for me (even one against Thornton-Murray). That's not enough. 5 wouldn't be enough neither. There's no way in my mind Fleury can earn a spot this pre-season. Let him go back to the Q, dominate, come back , get another solid training camp and pre-season after another long summer of hard work. Now that's earning your spot. Not playing 4-5 AHL caliber games and doing well in each of thos and being spoon fed the goaltender starting spot just under the nose of Caron.

Money purposes ? Now you're making it sound like the Pens would be screwing him of a roster spot that he has rightfully earned. Please. That's not what I call earning.
The logic is VERY simple :
Until he does bad, keep him.
See the logic? Quite simply, huh?
So far he's been up to the task. So why send him back simply by presuming he'll get burnt, while he's shown NO sign of getting burtn at all so far?

Yes it is only pre-season and the few saves he made against Big Joe's line doesn't matter all that much. Most teams are still not fully used to the NHL game speed, not giving full effort, keeping their energy for the real thing, etc.

Why would he get shelled in his first NHL games ? Because the games will be significantly different come october. You just can't have those expectations that he won't get shelled just because he faced Big Joe's line in a pre-season game and did well can you ?



You see I view it the other way around. He has to prove he's up to the task first. Especially since he's a goalie. And 2 pre-season games just doesn't do it for me (even one against Thornton-Murray). That's not enough. 5 wouldn't be enough neither. There's no way in my mind Fleury can earn a spot this pre-season. Let him go back to the Q, dominate, come back , get another solid training camp and pre-season after another long summer of hard work. Now that's earning your spot. Not playing 4-5 AHL caliber games and doing well in each of thos and being spoon fed the goaltender starting spot just under the nose of Caron.

Money purposes ? Now you're making it sound like the Pens would be screwing him of a roster spot that he has rightfully earned. Please. That's not what I call earning.
"He has to prove he's up to the task first"

Is that what you're saying, right? So tell me, how can he prove at all? If preseason means nothing, if junior means nothing, HOW CAN HE PROVE????

Flawed logic.

He might make the team. And he might be great. Or he might suck and be sent down. His confidence also could get hurt by being rushed in the NHL(even for only 5-10 games). You guys have no idea what is and what would be going on in his head if he was to play for the pens this season.

All I am saying is that there's not much to gain by playing him this season as 19 year old starter behind what is most likely one of the 3 worst team in the NHL. There's absolutely no need or urgency for the pens to play Fleury in the NHL this year and since bringing a goalie in the league slowly and patiently has proven to be a good method thus far I just don't see why the pens should do it differently.

If you guys can't understand that some people hold an opinion that is different than yours then there's no point discussing it and let's agree to disagre.

Stauber won the hobie baker and set many records while in the NCAA. The Kings were offered the number one pick in the draft for him the year he turned pro.

You sure you're thinking of the right goalie? Robb Stauber was a *sixth* round pick. He turned pro in 1989, or 1990 depending on how you count, which would mean the Sundin draft, or the Nolan/Jagr draft. If LA had ever been offered the #1 pick for Stauber, they would have taken it in a millisecond.

As for Stauber himself, any comparison to Fleury couldn't be further off. There was no "rushing" of Stauber. He didn't play an NHL game until two years after he won the Hobey Baker. And that was it for that season, 83 minutes. And that was at the age of *23*. He didn't play another minute of NHL hockey until he was *26*.
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/usage.php3?pid=5158

He might make the team. And he might be great. Or he might suck and be sent down. His confidence also could get hurt by being rushed in the NHL(even for only 5-10 games). You guys have no idea what is and what would be going on in his head if he was to play for the pens this season.

All I am saying is that there's not much to gain by playing him this season as 19 year old starter behind what is most likely one of the 3 worst team in the NHL. There's absolutely no need or urgency for the pens to play Fleury in the NHL this year and since bringing a goalie in the league slowly and patiently has proven to be a good method thus far I just don't see why the pens should do it differently.

If you guys can't understand that some people hold an opinion that is different than yours then there's no point discussing it and let's agree to disagre.

So you think that he can learn more by playing in the Q than he can playing in the NHL?

He might make the team. And he might be great. Or he might suck and be sent down. His confidence also could get hurt by being rushed in the NHL(even for only 5-10 games). You guys have no idea what is and what would be going on in his head if he was to play for the pens this season.

All I am saying is that there's not much to gain by playing him this season as 19 year old starter behind what is most likely one of the 3 worst team in the NHL. There's absolutely no need or urgency for the pens to play Fleury in the NHL this year and since bringing a goalie in the league slowly and patiently has proven to be a good method thus far I just don't see why the pens should do it differently.

If you guys can't understand that some people hold an opinion that is different than yours then there's no point discussing it and let's agree to disagre.

Because of course YOU know what would happen in his head :rolleyes:

And may I remind you you're the one trying to change our opinions. Not us.
You won't convince us because you keep on missing the questions asked about your flawed logic.
Sorry.
Once again can you tell me how Fleury can EARN the spot? Since nothing counts according to you. No preseason games count. No practice counts. Nothing. So how can he earn his spot???
You can't send someone back to juniors only for "age" reasons. Especially if he's proved to be up to the task.
So far he's proved that he's not rididcule.
No harm in letting him play a few games and see from there.

How much would it cost the Pens to keep him up for 10 games? Like it or not, money is a huge issue for them.

If he is their best option in goal, and he might be, then why not keep him up. Yes the team stinks, but they have a bunch of young kids up anyway. Could be a great bonding experience for that young crew, plus if it is Mario's last year I am sure Fleury would love to experience that with him.

It is not like anyone is expecting anything out of Pitt this year. And I do not buy the "one tough season will ruin a goaltender" logic.

Sorry didn't mean to skip out on some questions :)

Jacobv2 , I can only go on assumption but you would expect Caron as thew starter to start around 50 to 60 games giving Fleury 20 to 30 to keep sharp and improve his skills which I don't think is enough. He would get around 70 games with Cape Breton including playoffs.

Because of course YOU know what would happen in his head :rolleyes:

Have I ever said Fleury was sure to bust and lose confidence if he was to play with the pens ? HAVE I EVER SAID THAT ? What I said is that he couldn't possibly be able to look good with a team like the pens. And that there were a risk that he'd lose confidence and that this risk wasn't worth those 5-10 games at the NHL level.

No harm in letting him play a few games and see from there.

I don't know if there could be harm to his confindence if he played at the NHL level. I don't even think Fleury knows what's good for him right now. So how could you possibly know what would happen in his head ?



And may I remind you you're the one trying to change our opinions. Not us.

No I'm not ... I'm accepting your opinion. But I hold a different one.


You won't convince us because you keep on missing the questions asked about your flawed logic.
Sorry.

Are you trying to say only your opinion is right ? Yes ? I thought so


Once again can you tell me how Fleury can EARN the spot? Since nothing counts according to you. No preseason games count. No practice counts. Nothing. So how can he earn his spot???
You can't send someone back to juniors only for "age" reasons. Especially if he's proved to be up to the task.
So far he's proved that he's not rididcule.

Oh now common stop putting words in my mouth. I never said junior means nothing. What I say is that he can't win a starting spot on the pens team with one pre-season. I already said what I felt he had to do to earn it. Go back to junior and help his team win games. Then come back to the pens training camp next season and keep kicking ass. Then I will feel he has earned it. No he can't possibly earn a spot this year in my opinion. How is an opinion that is different than yours automatically flawed logic ?

So you think that he can learn more by playing in the Q than he can playing in the NHL?

Obviously if he's able to compete at the NHL level as a 19 years old starter behind one of the 3 worst team in the NHL then he'd stand more to gain by playing in the NHL. But I don't believe this is the case. Either way his development sure won't be hurt by winning games in the Q while building his confidence for the NHL level.

1.50 GAA, .940 something save percentage.
I think that's his numbers so far.
How can you send back a kid with these numbers?

1.50 GAA, .940 something save percentage.
I think that's his numbers so far.
How can you send back a kid with these numbers?

Oh yeah I forgot those important pre-season stats compiled over the course of 2 very long and important games.

To note : he faced the awesome Samso-Thorton-Murray line !

You are right. You have a very good point he definately should get a long look at the NHL level. And to think all you needed to do was post his stats to bring me back in the light. Oh man did we just waste some time arguing for nothing!

sigh....

But if preseason means nothing, how does one go about making a team? Prior experience? Sure, if you're Mario Lemieux. Preseason games determine who makes the big club. It determines players' future. There may not be many games, especially for a goalie to play, but that small amount of games determines a clubs' opening night line-up.

I see, if we go by your "logic" then there 8 other goalies that I have found with better pre season stats then Fluery so if we are only going by stats then we better call a fwe GM's and tell them to keep those guys with the big team.

Heck as long as we are following your logic, then we better call the press too, I just found 8 more goalies that are better than the greatest kid goalie of all time! Step out of the way Fluery.

IGM, goaltenders of Fleury's pedigree are rare, and deserve to be judged by a different standard. Dwight Lebrosse had a great camp last year for the Pens, but no one thought twice about sending him back to juniors, because it was easy to dismiss as a fluke. You can't do that with Marc-Andre Fleury.

Fleury, while perhaps no Robb Stauber, is still an elite prospect who should be given the chance to be the exception to the rule, assuming his play warrants it. And so far, it has.

I don't see any harm in letting him determine his own fate. But, in the end, I think outside factors will intervene, and he'll be back in Cape Breton for the '03-'04 season.

But if preseason means nothing, how does one go about making a team? Prior experience? Sure, if you're Mario Lemieux. Preseason games determine who makes the big club. It determines players' future. There may not be many games, especially for a goalie to play, but that small amount of games determines a clubs' opening night line-up.
Yep exactl what he can't explain... :rolleyes:

Yep exactl what he can't explain... :rolleyes:

Well, that's easy to explain.

He's saying that more work in juniors/minors should be mandatory for Fleury before anyone starts taking his preseason numbers seriously. That has some merit. But like I said in my above post, Fleury should be given a fair chance to prove the exception to the rule. He won't be hurt.

That has NO merit at all.
Work in juniors or minors don't necassarily translate to NHL impact (think Milan Kraft).
When a guy shows he's ready, play him until he shows otherwise.
Juniors and minors mean even less than preseason games.
That said given Cp's comments last night, I think Fleury will be sent back.
I'm not sure it's the wisest decision though.

Finally Evilo, an argument with some merit. Bravo.
This is something that I can actually debate with you. While it is true that Fluery is an exceptional young talent who just might be one of the best goalies of all time (or might be another Stauber,Storr, Dipietro, Osgood,Melanson,Kidd etc) I think that it is fair to say that allot of talented can't miss young goalies HAVE been harmed by being rushed into the NHL. It COULD do him harm. It COULD ruin his confidence. It COULDN'T do him any harm to go and play in 60 or so games in the AHL while he gets up to speed with the next level of play. It wouldn't hurt him to see 10 games worth of call up during the regular season. Why waste it at the beggining of the year when it would make more sense to let him get a bunch of starts in the AHL, prove that he is an exceptional goalie that can dominate at THAT level and then call him up.

There are two different schools of thought going on here. One is that if you rush him you could ruin him as has happened with allot of young talented goalies in the past.

The second is that you could start him in the bigs and let him learn playing among the best. He IS a special talent and I think the best young goalie to come along in a long time so it wouldn't be out of this world for him to be a solid NHL goalie at the age of 18.

The thing that you won't see and are all bunched up over is that if you rush him up now he might succeed BUT he COULD also do what so many other young great goalies before him have done and that is lose their game and confidence playing behind an awful team. It COULD happen. Why take a chance with such a promising young talent when it isn't going to help the Pens win the cup? Why rush him up now when there is even a chance of it causing him harm? Why not let him start in the AHL and get his time in there and if he does as well as you seem to think he will then call him up and let him finish the season with the big club? Why take a chance with him at all?

Why would you consider (even if it is a remote possibility) doing ANYTHING that could be detrimental to what will be the conrerstone of your future team? I mean, he is one of those players who COULD be the best at his position in a couple of years and by then you might have a solid team infront of him to make his transistion into the NHL a great one. One that legends are made of, one that would make sense. What you would rather see, (and don't say that you are only talking about him staying with the big club for the first ten games of the season because you have insinuated otherwise in other threads) Fluery come up now and MAYBE win 20 games this year while losing 40 and take a chance that he might never recover from it or wait until you have Ove and Crosby (or at least two very very good young players) to add to your team and give him a chance to play with a great young team that is on the rise?

I just don't understand why you would even consider doing anything that might have a negative impact on a great young player like him.

Finally Evilo, an argument with some merit. Bravo.
This is something that I can actually debate with you. While it is true that Fluery is an exceptional young talent who just might be one of the best goalies of all time (or might be another Stauber,Storr, Dipietro, Osgood,Melanson,Kidd etc) I think that it is fair to say that allot of talented can't miss young goalies HAVE been harmed by being rushed into the NHL. It COULD do him harm. It COULD ruin his confidence. It COULDN'T do him any harm to go and play in 60 or so games in the AHL while he gets up to speed with the next level of play. It wouldn't hurt him to see 10 games worth of call up during the regular season. Why waste it at the beggining of the year when it would make more sense to let him get a bunch of starts in the AHL, prove that he is an exceptional goalie that can dominate at THAT level and then call him up.

There are two different schools of thought going on here. One is that if you rush him you could ruin him as has happened with allot of young talented goalies in the past.

The second is that you could start him in the bigs and let him learn playing among the best. He IS a special talent and I think the best young goalie to come along in a long time so it wouldn't be out of this world for him to be a solid NHL goalie at the age of 18.

The thing that you won't see and are all bunched up over is that if you rush him up now he might succeed BUT he COULD also do what so many other young great goalies before him have done and that is lose their game and confidence playing behind an awful team. It COULD happen. Why take a chance with such a promising young talent when it isn't going to help the Pens win the cup? Why rush him up now when there is even a chance of it causing him harm? Why not let him start in the AHL and get his time in there and if he does as well as you seem to think he will then call him up and let him finish the season with the big club? Why take a chance with him at all?

Why would you consider (even if it is a remote possibility) doing ANYTHING that could be detrimental to what will be the conrerstone of your future team? I mean, he is one of those players who COULD be the best at his position in a couple of years and by then you might have a solid team infront of him to make his transistion into the NHL a great one. One that legends are made of, one that would make sense. What you would rather see, (and don't say that you are only talking about him staying with the big club for the first ten games of the season because you have insinuated otherwise in other threads) Fluery come up now and MAYBE win 20 games this year while losing 40 and take a chance that he might never recover from it or wait until you have Ove and Crosby (or at least two very very good young players) to add to your team and give him a chance to play with a great young team that is on the rise?

I just don't understand why you would even consider doing anything that might have a negative impact on a great young player like him.

1/ Dipietro is a bust??? Ouch!

2/ See I see it the other way around. 5 games won't hurt you muich, but being sent down without any good reason other than age when you've done everytihng you've been asked CAN hurt you. Ask Milan Kraft. He was ready at 19, wasn't at 20.

That has NO merit at all.
Work in juniors or minors don't necassarily translate to NHL impact (think Milan Kraft).
When a guy shows he's ready, play him until he shows otherwise.
Juniors and minors mean even less than preseason games.
That said given Cp's comments last night, I think Fleury will be sent back.
I'm not sure it's the wisest decision though.

One thing I think being overlooked is the chance he has this year to WIN in junior. We all know he'll be Canada's #1 at the World Juniors where he'll have a chance to win the gold medal he lost out on last year. Cape Breton is already 5-1 and has only allowed 12 goals in 6 games.

2 things you can not teach a player are confidence and winning. Playing in Pittsburgh this year all year and getting say 40 starts behind a terrible team will improve him, but will it improve him more then potentially winning a gold medal or a QMJHL championship? And then next year, what does he do? According to TSN the other day if he plays this year in the NHL, he can not play in the AHL next year if there is a lockout. So 1 year of NHL, then a year off during an important time period in his development? Or say 9 NHL games this year, then playing in Junior for the rest of the year and moving up to the AHL next year and then being ready in 05-06 when guys like Whitney and Orpik also have 2 more years development and maybe a player like Ovechkin or Crosby with them.

People can argue this ALL day. But there is no right or wrong way to develop a hockey player and what has happened before to other players is useless to bring up, because those players are not Marc-Andre Fleury. He was not supposed to make Cape Breton as a 16yr old. Not only did he make it, he started our 1st playoff game. He was not supposed to be the starting goaltender on the WJHC team as an 18yr old. Not only was he the starting goaltender, he was the tournaments MVP. The guy just seems to exceed all expectations laid out for him, and keeps that huge smile on his face the whole time while he's doing it.

One thing I think being overlooked is the chance he has this year to WIN in junior. We all know he'll be Canada's #1 at the World Juniors where he'll have a chance to win the gold medal he lost out on last year. Cape Breton is already 5-1 and has only allowed 12 goals in 6 games.

2 things you can not teach a player are confidence and winning. Playing in Pittsburgh this year all year and getting say 40 starts behind a terrible team will improve him, but will it improve him more then potentially winning a gold medal or a QMJHL championship? And then next year, what does he do? According to TSN the other day if he plays this year in the NHL, he can not play in the AHL next year if there is a lockout. So 1 year of NHL, then a year off during an important time period in his development? Or say 9 NHL games this year, then playing in Junior for the rest of the year and moving up to the AHL next year and then being ready in 05-06 when guys like Whitney and Orpik also have 2 more years development and maybe a player like Ovechkin or Crosby with them.

People can argue this ALL day. But there is no right or wrong way to develop a hockey player and what has happened before to other players is useless to bring up, because those players are not Marc-Andre Fleury. He was not supposed to make Cape Breton as a 16yr old. Not only did he make it, he started our 1st playoff game. He was not supposed to be the starting goaltender on the WJHC team as an 18yr old. Not only was he the starting goaltender, he was the tournaments MVP. The guy just seems to exceed all expectations laid out for him, and keeps that huge smile on his face the whole time while he's doing it.
Good and reasonnable post.

Missing the point, I wasn't saying Dipietro was a bust, I was saying that we saw the how he played the few NHL games he was in and if he was left to remain in that situation that it could have done a ton of damage. I thought it was implied but I can see where it might not have been.

I also agree with the idea that IF he was returned to juniors that it would continue to build on his storybook am career and I think that if the Pens were patient and let him go through the natuaral progression to the next level after that and win AND THEN go on to the NHL that he could really be something special.

He stopped 34 of 35 shots against the Caps tonight.

It will be hard to send him down with that kind of performances...

According to my stats Fleury has stopped 84 of 88 in the pre-season.

That's a 1.33 GAA and a .955 save percentage.

That pretty much seals the deal. Patrick basically said in today's Pittsburgh Post~Gazette that if he played great tonight he'll open contract talks with his agents next week.

The Pens have about a week and a half to sign Fleury now.

Incredible.

I believe it's 83/87 shots, but the GAA and SV% remain the same.

He starts again tonight againt Columbus, BTW.

[QUOTE=IGM] "While it is true that Fluery is an exceptional young talent who just might be one of the best goalies of all time (or might be another Stauber,Storr, Dipietro, Osgood,Melanson,Kidd etc)"

Ok, I'm not one to beat a dead horse, but I just can't let this slide.

Without sounding too Sesame Streetish, one of those names does not belong there. It's a shock that a hockey mind would associate a superbly talented PROSPECT with a bunch of guys who are old and have had their careers unfold already.

Rick Dipietro is the best NHL ready goaltending prospect in the league right now. Don't think for one second that he is a bust. He dominated the AHL for two seasons and proved he is far too good for the minor leagues. He's having a better preseason than most could have expected. He has 2 wins, a shared shut-out and was the most dominant player on the ice against Boston. He turned 22 years old last week. I'm sorry - but how he is labelled a bust is beyond me.

WOW. its been pretty intense reading some of the posts in this thread.

i think some of you are forgetting how young 18 is. im 16, just 2 years younger, and even if i was an outstanding goalie, the #1 goalie prospect, i would not be able to go up against the best hockey players in the world. fluery is obviously awesome and i agree with everyone who said PIT should give him a 5-10 game "tryout" and possibly send him back down. that seems like the safest thing to do. PIT better not be stupid and should take advantage of the fact that they could have the best goalie in the NHL in 1-2 years.

WOW. its been pretty intense reading some of the posts in this thread.

i think some of you are forgetting how young 18 is. im 16, just 2 years younger, and even if i was an outstanding goalie, the #1 goalie prospect, i would not be able to go up against the best hockey players in the world.

Well, that's just speculative. That's you. I mean, how would you know what Fleury's capable of?

But, that aside, the point you should've made is that Fleury may not be able to handle everything that goes with being a starter in the National Hockey League, and not just the games themselves.

He has already proven himself against world-class shooters. His skill is apparent. He has not yet, however, proven himself in a professional game that means anything.

Fleury let in 5, but it's understandable because he faced the offensive all stars of Columbus....

playing Fleury on back to back nights was stupid, plain and simple.

I'm sure that, under normal circumstances, Fleury would not play back to back games. Nor would most NHL goaltenders. I still think he should be offered a contract. Let him play his 10 games in the season, then decide what to do with him. He'll only be harder to sign as time goes on.

Plus, from what I see, the Pens didn't play well at all.

pffft, Suglobov just played 5 games in 6 nights.

He would NEVER play back to back games in the regular season. Fluery sure is living up to the hype allright. He is a great young prospect but this just further underlines my point, why make the kid go out and back up a team that is more often than not going to leave him hung out to dry every night. Why start his NHL career that way at all? IF IF IF the Pens were a goalie away from being a contender then you might have an argument on why he should get an extended try out with the team with the hopes of his being able to step in and be the final piece to the puzzle. IF that were the case. Since it clearly isn't I just wouldn't even consider it. I can understand why a Pens fan would want to have something to cheer for this season. I can understand why a Pens fan would want to get a look at such a great young talent. I just think it is stupid to even consider having him start the season with the big club. IF he is dominant in juniors there is nothing to say that he can't come the Pens next year when there is at least a shot that they might have a better team in front of him.

It isn't that HE isn't good enough to warrant the ten games, it's that the Pens are so bad this year that there just isn't a single valid reason to have him play for them. Too many things could go wrong. Why take ANY risk with the kid when it isn't going to help your team achieve anything? I will never get it.

He would NEVER play back to back games in the regular season. Fluery sure is living up to the hype allright. He is a great young prospect but this just further underlines my point, why make the kid go out and back up a team that is more often than not going to leave him hung out to dry every night. Why start his NHL career that way at all? IF IF IF the Pens were a goalie away from being a contender then you might have an argument on why he should get an extended try out with the team with the hopes of his being able to step in and be the final piece to the puzzle. IF that were the case. Since it clearly isn't I just wouldn't even consider it. I can understand why a Pens fan would want to have something to cheer for this season. I can understand why a Pens fan would want to get a look at such a great young talent. I just think it is stupid to even consider having him start the season with the big club. IF he is dominant in juniors there is nothing to say that he can't come the Pens next year when there is at least a shot that they might have a better team in front of him.

It isn't that HE isn't good enough to warrant the ten games, it's that the Pens are so bad this year that there just isn't a single valid reason to have him play for them. Too many things could go wrong. Why take ANY risk with the kid when it isn't going to help your team achieve anything? I will never get it.

No way. People develope different based on who they are. You can never make a solid point with that reasoning. The pens have Craig Patrick and a couple other good hockey people. Only they know. The hole point of this thread was about 'living' the hype, which he was. ( maybe I shouldn't end in a proposition?) Reguardless, I think you're already proved my point about future ticket sales. The fans will get to see him sooner or later.. Fact is, he has been dominent. At times, down right amazing. Even in his loss, he flashed signs of brilliance. But, he lost, and now if they do send him back, we may never know if he was ready. Frankly, risk is your issue, not the management of the pens. So simmer down! :)

playing Fleury on back to back nights was stupid, plain and simple.

Personally, I think they wanted him to fail.

Stop the fans from thinking he's a saviour for this season, and make the contract negotiations a little easier.

I kind of agree.
I think they were thinking two things :
1/ He shuts down Columbus or is still standgin on his head. Then no question asked, sign him and start him.
2/ Or see him fail, and have a good reason for sending him back without looking like an ass to your fans.

WOW ! WOW ! WOW !

I kind of agree.
I think they were thinking two things :
1/ He shuts down Columbus or is still standgin on his head. Then no question asked, sign him and start him..

No questions asked ? Because of 4 good pre-season games right ? Just making sure ...


2/ Or see him fail, and have a good reason for sending him back without looking like an ass to your fans.

Seeing him fail ? Because he allowed 5 goals he ... failed ? That one game now makes it reasonable in your eyes to send the kid down ? Something that was before totaly unthinkable ? What happens if next game he pulls a SO ?

Let's resume ...

4 good games = sure fire bet to play at least 10 games in the NHL ?

3 good games, 1 bad game (back-to-back) = he failed , send the kid down ?

Well, to be clear, I am fully supportive of a contract. There is little risk involved there, so he should definitely be signed.

I stand behind what I have said, regardless of a so-so game in Columbus (the team in front of him sucked big time, especially the defense).

Regardless of if he is often shelled during the season, it is my opinion that another WJC and Cape Breton year does him very little good. I'd rather see him learn and adapt to the NHL than totally dominate players he is much more skilled and NHL ready than. Sure, if he dominates them, that might be somewhat of a confidence booster, but he was drafted to be an NHL goalie. I think Cape Breton/Juniors has done their part in his development, and it is time to move on.

WOW. its been pretty intense reading some of the posts in this thread.

i think some of you are forgetting how young 18 is. im 16, just 2 years younger, and even if i was an outstanding goalie, the #1 goalie prospect, i would not be able to go up against the best hockey players in the world. fluery is obviously awesome and i agree with everyone who said PIT should give him a 5-10 game "tryout" and possibly send him back down. that seems like the safest thing to do. PIT better not be stupid and should take advantage of the fact that they could have the best goalie in the NHL in 1-2 years.
that wasn't my point.

i do, however, agree with what you were saying about the stuff that comes with being an NHL starter.

WOW ! WOW ! WOW !



No questions asked ? Because of 4 good pre-season games right ? Just making sure ...



Seeing him fail ? Because he allowed 5 goals he ... failed ? That one game now makes it reasonable in your eyes to send the kid down ? Something that was before totaly unthinkable ? What happens if next game he pulls a SO ?

Let's resume ...

4 good games = sure fire bet to play at least 10 games in the NHL ?

3 good games, 1 bad game (back-to-back) = he failed , send the kid down ?
I think from the beginning, management wanted to send him down. But so far he hasn't looked close to human, so they were in no position to send him down.
Now that he has looked beatable in one game, they can throw out their BS about how he needs to get soe playing time, blah, blah, blah.

That's what I meant.

He has alot of flaws still, he isn't good puck handling and he can be caught cheating alot short side. He needs to get bigger and stronger also. He is fairly weak blocker side, which is usually shot side.

I don't think MAF has as many flaws as your point out. He is still young and I think may become one of the top 2 goalies in the leage down the road. I think he is really close to being able to start in the NHL though I don't think one more season playing for the screaming eagles would hurt him either. There are some aspects he has to improve on but they are not that dramastic. as for your points of him being weak on the blocker side I live in Cape Breton so I got to see almost all the Eagle's games and I really didn't see it that way... He uses his body well to get in a position to block the shot... I find he has a good blocker and glove hand though I think his weakest may be on the short side and he does have to work a bit on his puck handeling There is not much more wrong with his game... I just hope the pens let him progress the right way

So, anyway, Pittsburgh will attempt to sign him.

http://www.post-gazette.com/breaking/20030930pensnet8.asp