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Dr_Chimera* 09-20-2003, 01:26 PM http://mckeenshockey.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=219070
Obviously, absolutely no inclusion for consideration of the future, as WJC results are not considered, as Sweden with a fairly unimpressive core of prospects winds up second. The rankings are mostly based on WC results, which of course never feature the best players.
Uh, ok. Thanks IIHF - this was worth it.
Obviously a lot of emphasis is placed on the World Championships. Some will argue too much. Perhaps more should be placed on the Olympic results? I think the process is fair but I do have a problem with Russia being and even the US being ranked so low.
Epsilon 09-20-2003, 04:27 PM http://mckeenshockey.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=219070
Obviously, absolutely no inclusion for consideration of the future, as WJC results are not considered, as Sweden with a fairly unimpressive core of prospects winds up second. The rankings are mostly based on WC results, which of course never feature the best players.
Uh, ok. Thanks IIHF - this was worth it.
I agree that putting so much emphasis on the World Championships is problematic since not all the teams ice their best lineups. On the other hand, prospects and WJCs shouldn't be taken into consideration because apparently the point of these rankings is to use them to invite/seed teams for the Olympics and other national team competitions. Rank the kids teams seperately perhaps, but I know I wouldn't want to see an Olympic berth come down to who can field the best team for that year's WJCs, since none of those players would be suiting up for the real national teams for several years.
How amusing.
If Team USA does as badly at the Worlds 2004 as they did in the Worlds 2003, they will not make it to Turin.
They definitely wouldn't make the 'automatic 8' (no doubt Switzerland would take that spot), and they'd have to play through qualifiers to get one of the other three slots. But what team will be assembled to play these qualifiers? NHL players won't be given leave; hell, even AHL and ECHL players won't be given leave, nor NCAA. It'll be an all-amateur squad.
This would be a HUGE black eye for the sport, if the host silver medalists in the 2002 games, in Hockey's percieved biggest growth market, don't even qualify for the Olympic games of 2006.
fan75 09-20-2003, 05:14 PM Nope, the 2002 Olympic results has, apparently, very little effect on who qualifies in 2006.
**The top eight ranked teams following the 2004 IIHF World Championship, determined by a later decision, will be automatically qualified to the 2006 Olympic Winter Games.
**The host team Italy will be placed directly into the 2006 Olympic Winter Games.
**The remaining three teams will be decided through Olympic Qualification Tournaments.
http://www.iihf.com/news/iihfpr5803.htm
canucksfan 09-20-2003, 06:52 PM Russia is low
Will next years Wolrd Cup of Hockey have any impact on the rankings since it is not an IIHF tournament?
nucks2001 09-21-2003, 10:08 AM Will next years Wolrd Cup of Hockey have any impact on the rankings since it is not an IIHF tournament?
doubtful because as you said, its not an IIHF tournament and it is not played under IIHF rules.
JasonMacIsaac 09-21-2003, 03:28 PM Sweden doesn't really have a weak base of prospects...actually their 87 group might be the strongest in Europe. Are you talking about drafted prospects?
Pekka Lampinen 09-22-2003, 12:05 AM Having an emphasis on the World Championships makes sense because NHL players' participation in Turin is not confirmed. That being said, the uncertainty makes any point system just a good guess at this point.
I wouldn't put much weight on the WJC's, though, if any. For example, a quick glance at Finland's Salt Lake City roster revealed that there were tvelwe players who didn't play in Nagano, but only three of them (Väänänen, Kallio, Hagman) had been notable players in WJC tournaments. The rest had earned their spurs elsewhere.
Triple Klutz 09-22-2003, 05:41 AM I definitely think the world juniors should be considered, even ahead of the world championships, which are a joke. The fact Sweden is rated four places ahead of Russia says all you need to know about these rankings (although they definitely got the top country right. :) )
Korkki 09-24-2003, 12:53 PM I definitely think the world juniors should be considered, even ahead of the world championships, which are a joke. The fact Sweden is rated four places ahead of Russia says all you need to know about these rankings (although they definitely got the top country right. :) )
The World championships are not a joke. They are the best tournament of the International Ice Hockey Federation which actually is the main organization for hockey.
It isn't IIHF's fault if the best players of Canada/USA are not playing there. In 90es there was a debate of moving the tournament for August/September but NHL didn't like that either so it was chosen to be in the same place as it is now (and was back then). The world cup of hockey is totally out-of-IIHF-control so those results would not be considered for the ranking.
SpezNc 09-24-2003, 04:41 PM The World championships are not a joke. They are the best tournament of the International Ice Hockey Federation which actually is the main organization for hockey.
It isn't IIHF's fault if the best players of Canada/USA are not playing there. In 90es there was a debate of moving the tournament for August/September but NHL didn't like that either so it was chosen to be in the same place as it is now (and was back then). The world cup of hockey is totally out-of-IIHF-control so those results would not be considered for the ranking.
I think that the world junior is the CHAMPIONSHIP TO LOOK... That's reveal a lot about your depth and how you're developping your best talents....
if i had to choose about see my team win the gold at WJC and the gold and the juniors WC, I will root for the Junior...
Epsilon 09-24-2003, 05:53 PM I think that the world junior is the CHAMPIONSHIP TO LOOK... That's reveal a lot about your depth and how you're developping your best talents....
if i had to choose about see my team win the gold at WJC and the gold and the juniors WC, I will root for the Junior...
Regardless, the WJCs should NOT be relevant when determining how to rank the real men's national teams for pro-level competitions.
Tricolore#20 09-24-2003, 10:52 PM I think the NHL/IIHF should attempt to standardize international competition to some extent, and then maybe impose rankings. Right now it seems very unorganised. Currently, there are two major international tournaments, and one unofficial one. The NHL should cooperate with the IIHF in developing a football type system.
I think it would be ideal if NHL could just give us assurances that they would send players to Turin (although I understand that the CBA is a major stumbling block). Perhaps after the CBA is settled, the NHL agrees that they will always send their players to the Olympics every 4 years. The NHL should allow a bigger winter break, allowing players of all nations to compete fairly (I heard they changed the format for Turin, which is a good sign). This way, we can have a very prestigious tournament, equivalent to the World Cup in football, rather than argue, that "this tournament was played with amateurs, this with pros." That kind of talk diminishes the prestige of the event.
I say just scrap the World Cup of Hockey altogether. It doesn't have the prestige of the Olympics, and is essentially an invitational, since only the top 8 teams in the world are invited. To me, this is like the equivalence of a Confederations' Cup, like the one played in France last summer. I don't mind seeing weaker teams like Kazhkastan, Poland and Japan in the competitions against bigger nations, since this causes great drama (ala England vs. Liechtenstein etc), and we saw what teams like Denmark and Belarus have the potential in doing.
As for what to do with the World Championships, I am not sure. This has its own prestige, but unfortunately, it isn't held with high regard in North America, where the best players in the world play. Perhaps make this an Olympic qualifying tournament for the minnow nations, and continue to have the same format for the A Group. Or maybe hold it every four years, in between the Olympics, a la European Championships of Football. Or maybe make it strictly a European Championship of Hockey, and hold it every four years between the Olympics.
FIFA certainly has inconsistencies for its rankings too, otherwise, why would Mexico be ahead of Italy, England and other nations. But, I admire their system, for they have one truly prestigious event; an event that generates great interest from the fans, and crowns a true world hockey champion.
I think it would be fun to have some pre-season 'friendlies' like they do in international soccer.
Triple Klutz 09-25-2003, 10:36 AM I say just scrap the World Cup of Hockey altogether. It doesn't have the prestige of the Olympics, and is essentially an invitational, since only the top 8 teams in the world are invited.
Forget that. You can't scrap one of only two tournaments where the absolute best from each country get to compete. The way it is now, we get to see best against best every two years and that's great.
Kronblom 09-27-2003, 04:47 AM The World championships are not a joke. They are the best tournament of the International Ice Hockey Federation which actually is the main organization for hockey.
It isn't IIHF's fault if the best players of Canada/USA are not playing there. In 90es there was a debate of moving the tournament for August/September but NHL didn't like that either so it was chosen to be in the same place as it is now (and was back then). The world cup of hockey is totally out-of-IIHF-control so those results would not be considered for the ranking.
It couldn´t be more true. :handclap:
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