Question to American fans about marketing of the World Junior Championships in the US

A host of one of the talk shows up here in Vancouver mentioned how Canada is drawing more fans in Grand Forks than the Americans.

This lead to an American calling in and making this point: The term "Junior" does not appeal to Americans and make some look down on the event because of this term. They (the organizing committee and USA Hockey) should have used the term "World Collegiate Hockey Championships" in the marketing campaigns due to the popularity of college sports in the US.

Do any Americans here have any thoughts on this?

I can see the argument made here, because at work i told the bartender to turn the game on and she said who's playing and i answered "it's the world juniors" and like 3 guys said "juniors? who want to watch kids"...so obviously the word juniors does come with a negative conotation in the US. But if fans don't want to tune in because of the title, I'd prefer them not watch anyways. Whats the point? so I can hear the next day some guy who has no idea what hes talkin about walk up to me and say "how about that phil kessel?"...no thanks! I'd rather have those stupid americans watch their college football!

World U-20 Hockey Championships
World Junior-Collegiate Championships
World Hockey Championships U-20

I don't think it matters really. The reason why it's drawing more Canadians is because it's in freaking North Dakota. What's really in North Dakota anyway?

I don't think it matters really. The reason why it's drawing more Canadians is because it's in freaking North Dakota. What's really in North Dakota anyway?

Do you remember Boston? It was a disaster. U.S coach Jackie Parker called the Beanpot a more important tournament, if you can believe that. I'll never understand why Americans don't warm to it. Only the Olympics and World Cup are better tournaments.

I don't think it matters really. The reason why it's drawing more Canadians is because it's in freaking North Dakota. What's really in North Dakota anyway?

Better question is why is there both a North and South Dakota, where's the explanation for that

The WJC will always be in the bottom of choices the ESPN viewers to watch and I was completely shocked that they got to play in a sports market like ESPN...hell, they're more then statisfied to play high school basket ball games instead...I could see also that the only real reason for the USA team to being see on ESPN, is b/c winning the gold in the previous tournament...to me, the lack of exposuer/attention the United States viewer gets, and the lack of a significant CHL teams in the states, people are ignorant to the meaning of the WJC and what a show it is...cant bame them though, we've all been grown with football, soccer, baseball, and basket shoved down our throats

One bizarre aspect of the tournament is the choice of music during the US games.

"American Woman" and "Born in the USA".

Both songs are highly critical of the US, so I find it strange they are played during US games. I could see people missing the point of Born in the USA, as the Boss is kind of subtle, but American Woman ? Not subtle at all... "I don't need your war machines, I don't need your ghetto scenes; American Woman: get away from me, etc. "

I'm not American, but I'm a little embarrassed for any US fans at the game that may have noticed this.

For the dummy who plays these tunes, just because a song says "USA" or "America" doesn't necessarily mean they are pro-US.

I dont think it has so much to do with "World Juniors" as it does with "hockey". With NCAA bowl games on during this period, most in the US would tune in to watch it compared to WJC. The NHL is to blame for this ultimately. It is the only hockey most people watch, and even then most do not watch it compared to other sports.

Until the NHL draws a big fanbase, you will not see the WJC as any thing more than a time slot that ESPN can fill with either Poker or WJC hockey. And on that note, I suspect poker(which I never understand why people watch a card game) would outdraw, ratings-wise, the WJC.

One bizarre aspect of the tournament is the choice of music during the US games.

"American Woman" and "Born in the USA".

Both songs are highly critical of the US, so I find it strange they are played during US games. I could see people missing the point of Born in the USA, as the Boss is kind of subtle, but American Woman ? Not subtle at all... "I don't need your war machines, I don't need your ghetto scenes; American Woman: get away from me, etc. "

I'm not American, but I'm a little embarrassed for any US fans at the game that may have noticed this.

For the dummy who plays these tunes, just because a song says "USA" or "America" doesn't necessarily mean they are pro-US.

especially considering that song was written by The Guess Who, who are Canadian.

I don't think it matters really. The reason why it's drawing more Canadians is because it's in freaking North Dakota. What's really in North Dakota anyway?


the ralph and uh...welll uh...let me think...the betty. oh there's a really cool truck stop in fargo that sells touch lamps and window paint! i'm glad they chose to have the wjc's in nodak since it's close to home and i was able to attend some games.

my 2 cents

changing the name: no, maybe they should advertise it...that may help draw some people. i'm in minnesota and there's nothin' about it anywhere and if there is you have to look to find info on it. even now in the local press the wjc coverage is 1/4 of a page from AP news. press doesn't care about hockey here in general so why they would give any attention to the wjc. that is asking a lot. and to change it to
World Collegiate Hockey Championships would just ocnfuse people because of Collegiate that should mean that all the players would come from college teams. if juniors is already being misinterpreted as "kids" then collegiate would be more misinterpreted. i just think people don't know because the information is not right there on the cover of the sports page or it's not easily accessible.


crowd draw: you're right when you say more canadians because it's in nodak. and really outside of nodak the largest and closest american population density is the twin cities in minnesota. that's a 6 hour drive and over xmas and new year's...to many damn american's like their football too much (a concept i will NEVER understand). BUT in minnesota the draw outside of nhl hockey is high school and college hockey. it's sad when you go to the hockey store and chat it up with the kid behind the counter and explain what you are doing for the week, 'going to the wjc" and he looks at you like you're speaking a foreign language. i read/heard somewhere that watching wjc during xmas in canada is like watching football game on xmas in the states. but then i wonder about hockey in the twin cities...a percentage of people go to gopher/wild games to entertain clients and as more of a "social" thing not to watch the game (more so this happens for wild games then gopher games but it does happen for both for sure), and the wjc is not going to get crowd draw from that.

Just a little story to add to this. I went to the Canada/Sweden game, when we crossed the border in International Falls, the border guard asked where we were going, we said the world juniors, he looked at us with a dumb stare and asked if we were playing.

It's North Dakota.Look at the map.How many people are going to go to Grand Forks,N.D. or Minnesota during Christmas and New Year's week?If someone is going to go on vacation,they will go visit their family in another state or head for some warm climate and NOT North Dakota or Minnesota.

Just a little story to add to this. I went to the Canada/Sweden game, when we crossed the border in International Falls, the border guard asked where we were going, we said the world juniors, he looked at us with a dumb stare and asked if we were playing.


yeah i kept getting asked if i had a friend playing in it(after my attempted explaination of what it was)

One bizarre aspect of the tournament is the choice of music during the US games.

"American Woman" and "Born in the USA".

Both songs are highly critical of the US, so I find it strange they are played during US games. I could see people missing the point of Born in the USA, as the Boss is kind of subtle, but American Woman ? Not subtle at all... "I don't need your war machines, I don't need your ghetto scenes; American Woman: get away from me, etc. "

I'm not American, but I'm a little embarrassed for any US fans at the game that may have noticed this.

For the dummy who plays these tunes, just because a song says "USA" or "America" doesn't necessarily mean they are pro-US.

You have way too much time on your hands to worry about the songs being played in the arena.You gives a ****

It's not advertised at all in the US. As for Americans being out drawn in attendence, it shouldn't suprise anyone. Tonights game is on at the same time as the Giants/Cowboys NFL game so I expect the ratings to be 0.00.

You have way too much time on your hands to worry about the songs being played in the arena.You gives a ****


i'm more embarrassed about the fact taht they can't announce goals right after they happen, or that the clock stops 15 min into the period because someone didn't reset the clock, and the ice is crap and other little things that make it to be an under par production. at least you can HEAR what the announcers are saying...this summer at eval camp you couldn't even hear what was being said (but that could also be partly because the arena was bare). it's a state of the art building...i guess i just expect state of the art everything (but it still rules you can watch the game in the bathroom stalls from the reflection on the floor because there are tvs in there.)

Wow you scare me looking at reflections in the rest room, just kidding beets.

Do you remember Boston? It was a disaster. U.S coach Jackie Parker called the Beanpot a more important tournament, if you can believe that. I'll never understand why Americans don't warm to it. Only the Olympics and World Cup are better tournaments.

I can almost guarantee you that, since the US is coming off a gold at the WJC, the results would be different in Beantown.

I wish we could have it in LA. But then again us Die hards are only so many.

They have been marketing this tourny since they got it like 2-3 years ago. "The world is coming!"

The reason the tourney is less-than-well attended by Amerks is because we are only 100 miles from the border, fools! Actually, the US games have had bigger and better crowds than the Canuck games (although some Canadians are at the US games-rooting for the other teams!). The closest hockey city is Minneapolis, which is 4+ hours away. Winnipeg is only 2 hours away, and Brandon, Morden, Winkler, etc. are ALL closer than that to the Forx.
I think the big problem is that we here in the US don't really care about hockey players under the age of 20 unless they play college Division I hockey. Because other than Crosby, none of these guys is as good as the players we see on a regular basis playing NCAA Division I games. And they don't play well as a team for the first 4 games.
By the way, GO USA!

P.S. Wayne Gretzky is here in town, so...

You want to know why Canada is drawing more than the USA?




Because Canada cares more. It's that simple. They showed a whole legion of Canadians at the USA/Sweden game. That doesn't happen for anyone else.


Hockey is hardly marketed at all in the USA. North Dakota is not a strong market. I'm sure if St. Paul got this tournament it would be a lot more supportive. It's almost like they're trying to create a hockey market and they can't.


I heard the other night that the first WJC's in America were held in Anchorage, Alaska. What the hell? It was somewhere else and then in Boston in 96 (if anyone knows that middle site that would be great)

The reason the tourney is less-than-well attended by Amerks is because we are only 100 miles from the border, fools! Actually, the US games have had bigger and better crowds than the Canuck games (although some Canadians are at the US games-rooting for the other teams!). The closest hockey city is Minneapolis, which is 4+ hours away. Winnipeg is only 2 hours away, and Brandon, Morden, Winkler, etc. are ALL closer than that to the Forx.
I think the big problem is that we here in the US don't really care about hockey players under the age of 20 unless they play college Division I hockey. Because other than Crosby, none of these guys is as good as the players we see on a regular basis playing NCAA Division I games. And they don't play well as a team for the first 4 games.
By the way, GO USA!

P.S. Wayne Gretzky is here in town, so...

A couple of points
1. yeah the reason Canada is drawing so well is that Canada has huge cities like Brandon (40, 000 people), Morden (6200) and Winkler (6400) so close. I agree that Grand Forks isn't exactly in the middle of a huge American population base but to claim that the relatively close proximity of "huge" Canadian "cities" like Winkler give Canadians a leg up in attendance numbers is ludicrous

2. only Crosby is as good as any of the players you see in NCAA. wow, that may be the most assinine thing I've ever read on these boards. I'm not going to slam NCAA hockey, because some very good players have come that route, but you so underestimate the quality of Canadian major junior and European pro leagues (not to mention someone like Bergeron, you I might suggest is at least as good as the average NCAA player; sarcasm intended)

They have been marketing this tourny since they got it like 2-3 years ago. "The world is coming!"

maybe in grand forks...

Hockey is hardly marketed at all in the USA. North Dakota is not a strong market. I'm sure if St. Paul got this tournament it would be a lot more supportive. It's almost like they're trying to create a hockey market and they can't.


I heard the other night that the first WJC's in America were held in Anchorage, Alaska. What the hell? It was somewhere else and then in Boston in 96 (if anyone knows that middle site that would be great)

I guess that's just stupid strategy by USA Hockey. Why put it in a nontraditional market? St. Paul would sell out in a second if it were held there. Hell I bet even Portland would be a better draw than Grand Forks.

What's really in North Dakota anyway?Fargo, and who the hell wants to be fed into a wood chipper?

I guess that's just stupid strategy by USA Hockey. Why put it in a nontraditional market? St. Paul would sell out in a second if it were held there. Hell I bet even Portland would be a better draw than Grand Forks.


Grand Forks, ND (and Northern Minnesota) is a "traditional" hockey market, after all the Fighting Sioux enjoy tremendous support. I see alot of bellyaching in this thread about marketing and such, but the event has been well organized, and well attended. So what if a sizable portion of the fans come from Canada? That's a nice option to have if you ask me.

A host of one of the talk shows up here in Vancouver mentioned how Canada is drawing more fans in Grand Forks than the Americans.

This lead to an American calling in and making this point: The term "Junior" does not appeal to Americans and make some look down on the event because of this term. They (the organizing committee and USA Hockey) should have used the term "World Collegiate Hockey Championships" in the marketing campaigns due to the popularity of college sports in the US.

Do any Americans here have any thoughts on this?

Two thoughts on this. 1-too many Americans do not appreciate the game of hockey and 2-it doesnt surprise me that more Canadians have shown up because Grand Forks is just about as much Canada as it is the US. :joker:

A couple of points
1. yeah the reason Canada is drawing so well is that Canada has huge cities like Brandon (40, 000 people), Morden (6200) and Winkler (6400) so close. I agree that Grand Forks isn't exactly in the middle of a huge American population base but to claim that the relatively close proximity of "huge" Canadian "cities" like Winkler give Canadians a leg up in attendance numbers is ludicrous

2. only Crosby is as good as any of the players you see in NCAA. wow, that may be the most assinine thing I've ever read on these boards. I'm not going to slam NCAA hockey, because some very good players have come that route, but you so underestimate the quality of Canadian major junior and European pro leagues (not to mention someone like Bergeron, you I might suggest is at least as good as the average NCAA player; sarcasm intended)

NCAA hockey is AT LEAST as good as most "major" junior hockey in Canada (as evidenced by the amount of college players in the NHL who are not just "there", but STARS).

Grand Forks is 50,000 people. So the Canadian towns and cities I mentioned add up to more than our population, plus they have minor hockey, major junior hockey, and etc. So they are very important to the region in terms of hockey fans.

This year's WJC is setting RECORDS for attendance (according to USA Hockey and the local newspaper), so to say that it is a "disappointment" or any other word except "exceptional" is ridiculous. It may not be drawing 11,000 a game like they had hoped, but today's Canada game drew 8,500 despite 10 inches of snow in the last 2 days and the closing of the main highway into Grand Forks on Friday.

I'm sorry if you think Patty Bergeron is so wonderful. He is a very good player, but I've seen better in the past 3 years just at UND alone (Parise, Bochenski, Brady Murray) who, if not for the NHL lockout, would be showing you that. And that's just here. Add in all of the other NCAA players who were drafted in the last 2 years, and it adds up to a pretty impressive list.

I'm sorry if you think Patty Bergeron is so wonderful. He is a very good player, but I've seen better in the past 3 years just at UND alone (Parise, Bochenski, Brady Murray) who, if not for the NHL lockout, would be showing you that. And that's just here. Add in all of the other NCAA players who were drafted in the last 2 years, and it adds up to a pretty impressive list.

Speaking as a Sens fan, I would trade Bochenski for Bergeron any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. (Please don't flame me Bruins fans, I know it would never happen, I'm just trying to make a point). BTW, Bochenski would not have made the Sens this year.

Seriously, tell me you don't believe what you just said... The level of competition between the NCAA and NHL is immensely different, the fact that Bergeron didn't look out of place at all was amazing.

And don't bother trying to count the number of NCAA products compared to the CHL or the Euro leagues... you're going to embarass yourself.

NCAA hockey is AT LEAST as good as most "major" junior hockey in Canada (as evidenced by the amount of college players in the NHL who are not just "there", but STARS).

I'm sorry if you think Patty Bergeron is so wonderful. He is a very good player, but I've seen better in the past 3 years just at UND alone (Parise, Bochenski, Brady Murray) who, if not for the NHL lockout, would be showing you that. And that's just here. Add in all of the other NCAA players who were drafted in the last 2 years, and it adds up to a pretty impressive list.


Don't try to water down your original post and certainly don't put words in my mouth

Your original post included
"Because other than Crosby, none of these guys is as good as the players we see on a regular basis playing NCAA Division I games."

My response included
"I'm not going to slam NCAA hockey, because some very good players have come that route, but you so underestimate the quality of Canadian major junior and European pro leagues (not to mention someone like Bergeron, you I might suggest is at least as good as the average NCAA player; sarcasm intended)"

Did I say that Canadian major junior hockey was better than NCAA? No, I didn't. I have no desire to get into a pissing war about junior hockey and NCAA. I simply responded to your very bold claim that outside of Crosby no one at this tournament was as good as division one players.

I don't, as you put it believe that Bergeron is "so wonderful". I do think he is a good young player who surprised last year and if he keeps it up has a bright future in the NHL ahead of him. The difference between him and Parise et. al. is that he's already shown what he can do at the NHL level. Will he be the better pro, who knows. Although IMO, the others have to show they can make it before it's even worth comparing. My original point, and I'll make it again for you, is that Bergeron is certainly an example of a player other than Crosby that is as good as what you get to see on a game by game basis in division one.

I heard Miller and McGuire talking about Detroit being a possible place for americans to hold their next WJHCs

I think it makes a lot of sense because even if detroit doesn't show up for the games, then its close enough to the border for canadians to make it a huge success.

Detroit likes to call themselves hockeytown so lets see how they support the under 20's.

JLA or the Palace are prolly venues that are too big but I guess they can play on their university campuses.... although I'm not sure how close they are to detroit.

Grand Forks, ND (and Northern Minnesota) is a "traditional" hockey market, after all the Fighting Sioux enjoy tremendous support. I see alot of bellyaching in this thread about marketing and such, but the event has been well organized, and well attended. So what if a sizable portion of the fans come from Canada? That's a nice option to have if you ask me.
well your right to a point. I have to side with ehc73 on the St.Paul idea. being so far away from a major airport would have cut air prices down to make it affordable. :dunno: (marketing wise)

That's one of my issues with this tournament. Quarter finals were on Saturday, Jan 1, bowl games mania in the States. They follow it up with the semis on Sunday, Jan 2, the final Sunday in the NFL.

Then the Gold medal game is on Tuesday, Jan 4 which is the National Championship game for NCAA football.

Just given the scheduling of this tournament, during the final 2 weeks of the NFL, college programs looking for new coaches, college bowl games especially in the elimination rounds, and the overall popularity of hockey in the US, it doesn't surprise me that the World Juniors doesn't get any publicity in the States.

I've always preferred when this tournament is played in Europe personally. There's always something more special about getting up early in the morning before anyone else is up at Christmas time to watch the game, then opening presents if it's Christmas day or cooking breakfast for everyone else who is just waking up. Having it in primetime during the holidays just puts it in the way of stuff like hanging out with friends or playing a game of hockey on the outdoor rink and other fun holiday stuff that doesn't involve the television.

people keep saying they had it in boston, it was in amherst which isnt really close to boston. i know people from other parts would say "whats the difference", but there is a bit of one.

as far as the whole tourney lacking support, id say from what ive seen on tv, its doing a lot better than amherst did. i went to that, and it was a ghost town. who cares which fans show up, as long as people did. i tried to arrange a trip from colorado, and plane tickets were like 450 bucks 3 months ago. package deals were starting at 1500, and individual tickets were like 30 bucks. i want to see the juniors as much as anyone else, but i cant afford nhl tickets. i thought it would be a bit cheaper, especially being n dakota....obviously not. if it had been more affordable, at least one more american wouldve been there.

being in n dakota was probably based on the facilities more than anything else. thats a brand new rink that cost millions and ive met people who have been there and have said its unbelievable. with all the sioux fans, they probably figured they would have at least have a strong local turn out (looks like they did). minny might have been better from our stand point, but i think it probably worked better from the facility pov. i think its better off in a strong collegiate place like that, a major metro area wouldnt have given the special treatment the locals in n dakota gave it.

One bizarre aspect of the tournament is the choice of music during the US games.

"American Woman" and "Born in the USA".

Both songs are highly critical of the US, so I find it strange they are played during US games. I could see people missing the point of Born in the USA, as the Boss is kind of subtle, but American Woman ? Not subtle at all... "I don't need your war machines, I don't need your ghetto scenes; American Woman: get away from me, etc. "

I'm not American, but I'm a little embarrassed for any US fans at the game that may have noticed this.

For the dummy who plays these tunes, just because a song says "USA" or "America" doesn't necessarily mean they are pro-US.
Not to mention both songs completely suck but I couldn't agree with you more. Lets face it, no matter what country you are from we all have our share of morons!

My favorite is when I go to a game and when they want to pump up the crowd they start jamming the main riff from "The Beautiful People". I wonder what half those upper middle class parents would think if they knew they were dancing around and waving their hands to none other than Marilyn Manson. haha tooo funny!

Sorry, getting off topic...anyway, I do agree many Americans associate the term "junior" with kids but it's not worth changing the name of the tournament. I'm all about being an ambassador of the game but you have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to attracting non-hockey fans.

I'm sure if St. Paul got this tournament it would be a lot more supportive.

I wouldn't bet on it. It's not like the World Jrs. is the state high school tourney or anything.

;)

Do you remember Boston? It was a disaster. U.S coach Jackie Parker called the Beanpot a more important tournament, if you can believe that. I'll never understand why Americans don't warm to it. Only the Olympics and World Cup are better tournaments.

It's not just Americans, take a look at the attendance for games played in Europe. The WJC is widely popular in Canada and Canada only.