Montoya vs. Olesz

Let's take the talk off the incredibly annoying hold-out for a few.

Let's say for arguments sake that the Rangers are back on the clock again. Do you pass up Montoya for Olesz? Rosti was the guy I wanted then, and I would still take him now. I have a feeling he will absolutely bust out at the WJC this year. Anyone ever hear how Olesz dropped so low on our draft board?

Rostislav Olesz

I wanted Olez but now I'd rather have Montoya. I though Blackburn would come back, but Sather isn't feeling it.

and had hoped that the Rangers traded up in the draft for Ladd.

But as things have shaken out, I'm glad they took Montoya.

Let's take the talk off the incredibly annoying hold-out for a few.

Let's say for arguments sake that the Rangers are back on the clock again. Do you pass up Montoya for Olesz? Rosti was the guy I wanted then, and I would still take him now. I have a feeling he will absolutely bust out at the WJC this year. Anyone ever hear how Olesz dropped so low on our draft board?



Going into the draft, I was hoping for Olesz as well, and I was initially displeased with the Montoya pick. Not that I had seen Rosti play, but I figured he had top two line potential (we dont have many centers with that) and was more NHL ready than most in the draft. I didn't want Montoya because we already had Blackburn and Lundquist.

However, now I'm glad we took Montoya. Blackburn is just a question mark at this point, and there are no guarantees with Henrik either. Goalie is probably the most important position on the team. Plus its very difficult to find a quality goalie via trade or free-agency (just ask Bobby Clarke). It doesnt matter how NHL ready the guy is , cause we wont see any NHL for a while. Good safe pick.

I wanted to draft Olesz on draft day. Still feel the same way.

and had hoped that the Rangers traded up in the draft for Ladd.

But as things have shaken out, I'm glad they took Montoya.

I agree. I still can't believe that Slats couldn't have topped the Cane's offer for Ladd.

With the position the Rangers are in, and the lockout looming, best player available was def. the way to go. Montoya was that.

Lundqvist may be the only young goalie in the system, getting Montoya may not have been a bad thing, especially knowing that they'd have plenty of picks in later rounds to get a bunch of forwards.

I was mad at the time about getting Montoya..only because I thought Danny Blackburn was going to be healthy again...doesnt look like it. But even if he was going to be ok now looking at it I still would be glad we got Al...every team that wants to succed in the NHL needs a A goalie....a great goalie can do WONDERS to a team with even average talent. The Rangers for the past years have been developing the team the wrong wait...starting with the offense...we needed to start with the goalie and work the other way. Lund or Montoya im sure will turn into a great goalie for YEARS to come. Its easy to land a star foward or a top defensman...but its almost impossible to land a top goalie or a star goalie..thats something you need to draft.

I'm still curious as to why the Rangers dropped Olesz on the draft list so much after he supposedly was ranked so high by them. Olesz just seems like the complete package to me... offense, defense, hits hard, amd I'm assuming a pretty good leader as the Czech WJC team named him captain.

Montoya was a nice pick though, hopefully he just continues to develop... a great WJC would go a long ways towards making me more comfortable :-D

people dont' see olesz's upside as all that high i guess, but that wouldn't really be the reason he dropped at the last instant

i guess it was something they saw at the combine, i dunno

people dont' see olesz's upside as all that high i guess, but that wouldn't really be the reason he dropped at the last instant

i guess it was something they saw at the combine, i dunno

Wasnt he the one that had the bad attitude? Or am i thinking of someone else?

Wasnt he the one that had the bad attitude? Or am i thinking of someone else?
Schremp? Never heard anything about attitude problems from Olesz.

Schremp? Never heard anything about attitude problems from Olesz.


Oh right that was Schremp..nevermind.

Someone here in the know (Fletch?) posted that the Rangers had Olesz in their top 5 and suddenly dropped him for some unknown reason.

There are centers defenseman and goalies available every year.In a sense the Montoya pick agravted me a bit but in all reality was a pretty decent move.Nyr did have plenty of picks and drafted a ton of fwds so the pick was ok but not what I wanted.I wanted Ladd if not then Olesz if not then whoever.

since when are star dmen (not past their prime) available every year?

since when are star dmen (not past their prime) available every year?
What the hell are u talking about man.We are talking about the draft and your talking about players not past there prime.Dude b4 you comment understand what you are saying, that would help. :(

My point is NyR is in the situation where they will have pretty high draft picks every year for proabbly the next couple years so they could have waited to draft a goalie and drafted else wise,do you understand what I mean now.

agreed on the high picks in the years ahead, but after listening to Maloney on "future blue" after the game last night i am a little concerned...

basically said if theres a goalie sitting there again they will pick him...these guys really do believe you can't have enough goaltending... whether it was just lip service i don't know, but he sounded dead serious

agreed on the high picks in the years ahead, but after listening to Maloney on "future blue" after the game last night i am a little concerned...

basically said if theres a goalie sitting there again they will pick him...these guys really do believe you can't have enough goaltending... whether it was just lip service i don't know, but he sounded dead serious

Well I dint know he planned on drafting more goaltending prospects, I mean that could bring good deals for NHL ready players in the future, but I wouldnt go that route.Im sure he also didnt mean he will take goalies in the first round but he will take them if there are some with talent in the later rounds I would assume 3rd and higher, like Lundqvist he was a steal in the 7th round or whatever it was.You could never have enough of any prospects if it be Goaltending Fwds or defense.Also drafting some quality D-men would be nice, since NYR drafted so many FWDS in this years recent draft.IMO Defense and Goaltending are major to have depth in as you could go very far with good offense and great defense and goaltending instead of with great offense and decent defense and goaltending.Thats IMO.

agreed on the high picks in the years ahead, but after listening to Maloney on "future blue" after the game last night i am a little concerned...

basically said if theres a goalie sitting there again they will pick him...these guys really do believe you can't have enough goaltending... whether it was just lip service i don't know, but he sounded dead serious

I wouldn't be too worried. They seem like rational human beings. I'm sure they won't pass up a Johnson, Brule, Kindl... etc for a Carey Price or Rask. However, if they feel strongly about a goaltender in the 3rd and under rounds then by all means make the pick. Unless their is a guy you LOVE, then I would think they'd forget goalies the first two rounds. They realize they need a team.

I, personally, was screaming at my t.v. for Tukonen but what's done is done.

To be perfectly honest, Montoya's charisma over-states his ability. He's over-rated. Marek Schwarz was the goalie of the draft last year.

You've got to think that Slats is sort of kicking himself now, especially with the way Henrik is playing in Sweden. He's a guy that could probably jump into a 40 game role upon coming to the Big Apple. Blackburn will need at least another two years in the minors to recover from lost time. Where in all of this is Montoya then? He's trade bait in my opinion. Is that likely to happen? Certainly not.

With the way Sather is running things, Lundqvist will be left to rot in Sweden, Blackburn will be dealt for a 4th round pick in a years time and Montoya will be signed, rushed and ruined.

We'll go from three great prospects to none at all in the matter of two years.

You've got to think that Slats is sort of kicking himself now, especially with the way Henrik is playing in Sweden. He's a guy that could probably jump into a 40 game role upon coming to the Big Apple. Blackburn will need at least another two years in the minors to recover from lost time. Where in all of this is Montoya then? He's trade bait in my opinion. Is that likely to happen? Certainly not.

With the way Sather is running things, Lundqvist will be left to rot in Sweden, Blackburn will be dealt for a 4th round pick in a years time and Montoya will be signed, rushed and ruined.

Not so. Its not like Lundqvist just started playing well this year. Henrik has consistently gotten much better year by year, and this year he is just dominating. So saying Sather should be upset because Henrik is playing well this year, is misleading.

Have hope that things shake our way, with our own goalies and trade bait.

I, personally, was screaming at my t.v. for Tukonen but what's done is done.

To be perfectly honest, Montoya's charisma over-states his ability. He's over-rated. Marek Schwarz was the goalie of the draft last year.

You've got to think that Slats is sort of kicking himself now, especially with the way Henrik is playing in Sweden. He's a guy that could probably jump into a 40 game role upon coming to the Big Apple. Blackburn will need at least another two years in the minors to recover from lost time. Where in all of this is Montoya then? He's trade bait in my opinion. Is that likely to happen? Certainly not.

With the way Sather is running things, Lundqvist will be left to rot in Sweden, Blackburn will be dealt for a 4th round pick in a years time and Montoya will be signed, rushed and ruined.

We'll go from three great prospects to none at all in the matter of two years.

1. Montoya has virtually outplayed Schwatrz in basically every aspect of their career. I will be very surprised if Montoya doesn't dwarf Schwartz in the WJC. A few Hasek comparisons because hes Czech and everyone is off the wall about him. Cory Schneider is probably better then Schwartz. There is a reason he lasted sooo long.

2. Blackburn CAN'T spend two years in the minors. After this year he'd have to clear waivers to play in the minors so bye-bye Blackburn unless he really picks it up fast and can play in the NHL next season.

3. There is nothing wrong with having two legit prospects in Lundvquist and Montoya playing in Hartford next year (Blackburn can't be there). Odds are they both won't be stars. You just hope that one can.

4. Don't sell Montoya too short here. I woulda taken Olesz, but that ship has passed so we have to enjoy Montoya, which I think we will.

I don't know that the Rangers pick another goalie next year if there's one available. I believe this pick was made due to the fact that Blackburn is a huge question mark, they're not convinced that Labarbera's going to be an NHL goalie, and that only leaves Lundqvist, which doesn't leave a lot of depth, and when you're building a team from the net out, goaltending's an important position to fill. Next season, if a goalie is the BPA, I'd hope they'd trade down with someone in need of a goalie, get a defenseman or forward and an extra pick.

I agree, Lundqvist has been getting better and better every year. However, he's had his doubters and I have to believe that Glen, for a while, was one of them. Especially with his refusal to even tender an offer to get Henrik over here for this season.

The difference between this year and year's past is that the entire league/world now knows who this 7th-round Rockerstrom gem is. Everyone and their dog is aware of it and that changes things.

Perhaps I'm a little too pessimistic, I won't mention the main reason why (it gets enough attention on it's on ;) ); all I can say is that I don't trust Glen's instincts anymore - not that I really ever did.

There is a chance Blackie can play in the AHL. Yeah, he has to clear waivers, but who would take him? Any team taking him would also want to send him to the AHL and thus he'd have to clear waivers there too. Depending on how fast he recovers, a slower recovery means less a chance that someone takes on him to be playing in the NHL. It's not absolute; it's a gamble, but it remains an option.

I agree, Lundqvist has been getting better and better every year. However, he's had his doubters and I have to believe that Glen, for a while, was one of them. Especially with his refusal to even tender an offer to get Henrik over here for this season.

The difference between this year and year's past is that the entire league/world now knows who this 7th-round Rockerstrom gem is. Everyone and their dog is aware of it and that changes things.

Perhaps I'm a little too pessimistic, I won't mention the main reason why (it gets enough attention on it's on ;) ); all I can say is that I don't trust Glen's instincts anymore - not that I really ever did.

You're overlooking one thing about Lundqvist: in order to sign him, the Rangers would have had to pay a transfer fee to his Swedish club. And since the agreement covering international transfers has expired, they could ask anything they wanted. Given that Lundqvist is a big reason for their success, chances are it would have been a large fee.

1. Montoya has virtually outplayed Schwatrz in basically every aspect of their career. I will be very surprised if Montoya doesn't dwarf Schwartz in the WJC. A few Hasek comparisons because hes Czech and everyone is off the wall about him. Cory Schneider is probably better then Schwartz. There is a reason he lasted sooo long.

2. Blackburn CAN'T spend two years in the minors. After this year he'd have to clear waivers to play in the minors so bye-bye Blackburn unless he really picks it up fast and can play in the NHL next season.

3. There is nothing wrong with having two legit prospects in Lundvquist and Montoya playing in Hartford next year (Blackburn can't be there). Odds are they both won't be stars. You just hope that one can.

4. Don't sell Montoya too short here. I woulda taken Olesz, but that ship has passed so we have to enjoy Montoya, which I think we will.

1. There is more to goaltending that just numbers. All it takes is for the jerk in the press box to miss five shots and you go from a .900 to a .880 and when you're Schwarz and facing 40-50 shots a game in the Czech Elite League, things tend to get construed. Make no mistake about it; technically, laterally and reflex-wise Schwarz is the better goaltender.

Like I mentioned earlier, people tend to get caught up in the flashy cuban kid that loves the spotlight (which happens to be New York). Things of a correlated nature often seem, but in fact are not causily related. He's certainly not the next Mike Richter like everyone is hoping.

2. That is precisely why he'll be dealt within a year for a 4th rounder or so. His value is declining, he's played out his waiver ineligibility and he's viewed as an uncertain risk.

3. It's not optimal to have two starting guys, used to carrying the load, splitting time. Unfortunatley it doesn't work too well. Regardless, I tend to believe that Henrik is past the AHL point in his progress. Although he may need time to adjust to the angles of a smaller NA rink.

4. Montoya needs to prove himself before he earns what some have already given to him (too easily, I might add). I would have taken Tukonen in a second.

You're overlooking one thing about Lundqvist: in order to sign him, the Rangers would have had to pay a transfer fee to his Swedish club. And since the agreement covering international transfers has expired, they could ask anything they wanted. Given that Lundqvist is a big reason for their success, chances are it would have been a large fee.

When has money ever been a problem for Dolan or Slats?

The transfer fee involved had little, if anything to do with Glen not wanting Lundqvist to cross the pond.

how Schwarz and Montoya play out. Montoya's flashiness and liking the spotlight may be to his advantage. And I think his international play last season showed that the guy can get up for big games. I haven't seen either play, so I can't fully comment, but I'm not sure Glen is the only GM who thought Montoya would be a worthwhile pick.

One question on Schwarz: why is he in the WHL? Seems like a strange move from the Czech league (a step down, or a few steps down).

4. Montoya needs to prove himself before he earns what some have already given to him (too easily, I might add). I would have taken Tukonen in a second.

why isn't this the same for schwarz? you and other people seem to just hand him the title as "best goaltender in the draft" for no reason other than "oh i think he has the best skills" and with nothing to really back it up at this point...his play hasn't proven him to be better than montoya or dubnyk, who were both taken before him.

from all accounts, it's also his technical play that is his downfall at this point...playing out of position, etc etc.

if schwarz was far and away the best goalie in the draft, he would have gotten picked by someone before he did...either the rangers or the oilers or whatever. reportedly the rangers were also very interested in schwarz for awhile before the draft...i have to assume that since they then drafted montoya, that they definatly liked montoya's game more when they compared the two and thought he was the better goalie, the better player

as for lundqvist coming over this year...i think it was decided for him to stay in sweden because he'd get a ton of minutes against very high levels of competition (with the locked out NHL players going over there) it just was a better situation, i don't think it has anything to do with the rangers ignoring him and not liking him

When has money ever been a problem for Dolan or Slats?

The transfer fee involved had little, if anything to do with Glen not wanting Lundqvist to cross the pond.

You really think that? It's been obvious for years that Sather only opens the checkbook for proven veterans, not prospects. He's refused to sign older European prospects like Ekman and Zidlicky to one way contracts (which involved less money than the transfer fee Frölunda would probably demand), while signing the likes of Cigar (who hadn't played in the NHL for something like 5 years) to a guaranteed contract. Refusing to pay the transfer fee is business as usual for Glen.

And there is also the fact that over the summer it looked like Blackburn would be cleared to play sometime around the beginning of the season. Plus the fact that, given the lockout, the quality of competition in the SEL is much higher than the AHL. Overall, the organization made a decision to leave Lundqvist in a situation that would remain challenging for him and give Blackburn the chance to play himself back into the picture.

Sather may have underestimated Lundqvist, but I don't think that had very much to do with not tendering him a contract.

And there is also the fact that over the summer it looked like Blackburn would be cleared to play sometime around the beginning of the season. Plus the fact that, given the lockout, the quality of competition in the SEL is much higher than the AHL. Overall, the organization made a decision to leave Lundqvist in a situation that would remain challenging for him and give Blackburn the chance to play himself back into the picture.

bingo...and lundqvist has responded by playing better and more consistant through the year than he did last year against better competition

and the rangers are openly talking about signing him next year (well, and they were openly talking about signing him last year too until they decided it'd be best to leave him in sweden for another year)

1. There is more to goaltending that just numbers. All it takes is for the jerk in the press box to miss five shots and you go from a .900 to a .880 and when you're Schwarz and facing 40-50 shots a game in the Czech Elite League, things tend to get construed. Make no mistake about it; technically, laterally and reflex-wise Schwarz is the better goaltender.

Like I mentioned earlier, people tend to get caught up in the flashy cuban kid that loves the spotlight (which happens to be New York). Things of a correlated nature often seem, but in fact are not causily related. He's certainly not the next Mike Richter like everyone is hoping.

2. That is precisely why he'll be dealt within a year for a 4th rounder or so. His value is declining, he's played out his waiver ineligibility and he's viewed as an uncertain risk.

3. It's not optimal to have two starting guys, used to carrying the load, splitting time. Unfortunatley it doesn't work too well. Regardless, I tend to believe that Henrik is past the AHL point in his progress. Although he may need time to adjust to the angles of a smaller NA rink.

4. Montoya needs to prove himself before he earns what some have already given to him (too easily, I might add). I would have taken Tukonen in a second.

1. Your right, there is much more to goaltending then numbers, but I'd like to see Schwartz outplay Montoya at some level before simply naming him the #1 goalie. Do you really think you know more about them then all the GM's who let him slide that long? He was the 3rd goalie taken for a reason. I'm not saying he can't one day be the best goalie taken in that draft, but he's shown me nothing to merit that now. Montoya and Dubynk were taken first, and have both outperformed him at this point. Schwartz own backup has outperformed him as of right now. Schwartz may have great reflexes, but he has many other holes in his game right now.

2. Blackburn is an uncertain risk. He may or may not fully recover. He may or may not be able to make up for lost development time. If you could leave him in Hartford for a couple more years then I think he could develop, but that doesn't appear to be an option. I'm not one to gamble sending him down just to see Milbury or Lamoriello grab him. His uncertain status IMHO is one of the biggest reasons that NYR took Montoya. Lundvquist himself has even said he'll need a year in the AHL. To simply pencil hims in the NHL immediately would be foolish. What would we rush him for? Our playoff run?

3. It's not optimal to have two starting goalies in the NHL, but what are the odds that both play equally great hockey? Odds are that one will seperate themself from the other in 2-3 years. They certainly can split time with all the games in the AHL, not too mention they will probably have Allaire down there quite a bit to work with them. Half an AHL season isn't like half an NCAA season.

4. Montoya is every bit as proven as anyone in that draft outside of AO and Malkin. He performed his best on the biggest stage. He played very good hockey all yer last season at Michigan, and has been solid this year on a team that often leaves him out to dry. I'm not saying he's a guaranteed stud goalie, but Tukkonen is no more proven at this point. It is just as possible that Montoya could be a career back-up as Tukkonen is a career 3rd/4th liner. Many finnish posters consider Korpikoski or Nokkelainen very comparable to Tukkonen.

Make no mistake about it; technically, laterally and reflex-wise Schwarz is the better goaltender.

There is absolutely zero evidence to back that claim up. Montoya was considered by some to be the best player outside of Ovechkin & Malkin. Everything that he has done in his amatuer career has been worthy of a 5th overall pick. What you are not accounting for with the kid, is that along with looking good in the spotlight, Montoya also has a big-game mentality. No small thing.

"He's certainly not the next Mike Richter like everyone is hoping."

Then again, maybe he is. Point is is that it is entirely too early to call him the next anything.

"2. That is precisely why he'll be dealt within a year for a 4th rounder or so. His value is declining, he's played out his waiver ineligibility and he's viewed as an uncertain risk."

Declining value goes hand in hand with an injury that has taken 2 years to heal. Blackburn has to go out and prove himself all over again.

"It's not optimal to have two starting guys, used to carrying the load, splitting time. Unfortunatley it doesn't work too well"

Yes, but having 2 "franchise" goalie prospects gives your team the better chance of actually having a "franchise" goalie and not just a prospect.

"I would have taken Tukonen in a second.'

You would have. A bunch of others would not have. The others include the entire Rangers scouting staff. There was a debate on this board about Tukonen. There is nothing to prove that he is better than even Korpikoski. The ship on Tukonen has sailed. He was never a choice of the Rangers, even if Montoya would have been already taken.

I would venture to guess he would've been gone by the #11 pick with which Tukonen was taken. He was passed-up by a fair amount of teams. That's not to say he's not good, as I have no idea, but the draft is a crap-shoot. You won't know what your getting for a few years, but do you best to pick out those gems.

I've created quite the stir. :D

I am a goaltender myself, and happen to also coach goaltenders. Not to discredit any of you above and certainly not to put myself on the same level as the guy's making the real decisions. However, I look at Schwarz and I see a kid that although he may not be that big; he plays a sound, square game. It doesn't matter how fast you move the puck, he's always got it cut down and concentrated. He's aware of his surroundings, vocal with his defenseman, and versatile when it comes to being knocked around.

Futhermore he's used to having MANY shots a game. In the games I've seen him play he's handled a tremendous workload while seeming to get stronger every period. Not only is he facing more shots but these are 2nd and 3rd stops, something of which I can guarantee doesn't happen much in Michigan. Those 2nd and 3rd stops are crucial for NHL goaltenders. You often hear a coach say "just make the first save" well, I'm here to tell you that's a load of crap. Seven out of every ten defenseman are useless, it's a fact of goaltending and you're better off not depending on anyone. My point, of course being, Marek has not and does not depend on anyone. He can make 5 or 6 stops in a row and those are the game savers.

And that's the big concern that I have with Montoya. You play for a first-class team all your life and then you get to the Rangers, boy you're in for one helluva surprise. :eek:

As for the rest of the stuff, I'm too tired. I might be back on tomorrow (I live in Winnipeg and will be going to the Canada vs. Swiss exh. match) to discuss this with you guys further.

Have a good one.

Heino-lindberg played out Montoya in a exhibition game at the summertourney
in US this summer Sweden won 3-0 though they lost the shots.In that game Heino-lindberg was much more impressive!Have everybody forgotten him?

no discredit taken. But of course many professional scouts who have been doing it for 30 years have blown first round picks before. Tough to get it right everytime.

well everyone has opinions. you can have two guys who watch the same prospects and have completely different opinions

i tend to think that the rangers probably scouted both schwarz and montoya extensively and they took the player they thought was better, but fletch is right, scouts get it wrong sometimes too. for the rangers sake i hope they got it right and for homerism, i'm gonna contend that they did :)

this WJC should be interesting

I'd agree with that. People that have been doing this for a lot longer than I have, have made mistakes - everyone is entitled to see or believe whatever they wish.

Without doubt the Rangers liked Montoya more which was a little frustrating for me. We did, however, turn around and have a solid draft in terms of evaluating the prospects today and their apparent futures. Whether or not the draft of 04 is reviewed as a good one 5 years from now still remains to be seen.

For the sake of the Rangers I hope I'm wrong; I'd like to see us have three excellent goaltenders and viable trade options for the future.

I've created quite the stir. :D

I am a goaltender myself, and happen to also coach goaltenders. Not to discredit any of you above and certainly not to put myself on the same level as the guy's making the real decisions. However, I look at Schwarz and I see a kid that although he may not be that big; he plays a sound, square game. It doesn't matter how fast you move the puck, he's always got it cut down and concentrated. He's aware of his surroundings, vocal with his defenseman, and versatile when it comes to being knocked around.

Futhermore he's used to having MANY shots a game. In the games I've seen him play he's handled a tremendous workload while seeming to get stronger every period. Not only is he facing more shots but these are 2nd and 3rd stops, something of which I can guarantee doesn't happen much in Michigan. Those 2nd and 3rd stops are crucial for NHL goaltenders. You often hear a coach say "just make the first save" well, I'm here to tell you that's a load of crap. Seven out of every ten defenseman are useless, it's a fact of goaltending and you're better off not depending on anyone. My point, of course being, Marek has not and does not depend on anyone. He can make 5 or 6 stops in a row and those are the game savers.

And that's the big concern that I have with Montoya. You play for a first-class team all your life and then you get to the Rangers, boy you're in for one helluva surprise. :eek:

As for the rest of the stuff, I'm too tired. I might be back on tomorrow (I live in Winnipeg and will be going to the Canada vs. Swiss exh. match) to discuss this with you guys further.

Have a good one.


The questions with Schwars werent about his game, they were about the head on his shoulders.