Niinimaa out of Team Finland

Niinimaa leaves team Finland of his own willingnes, because he`s not cabable to work with head Coach Raimo Summanen. People chemistry between Niinimaa and Summanen just doesn`t work.

yle text tv (only in finnish) (http://www.yle.fi/cgi-bin/tekstitv/ttv.cgi/?PAGE=235)

This is huge, I can`t remeber when was the last time finnish hockey player didn`t want to play in national team because of the coach. Altough there has been a lot of converstion about Summanen`s way to lead national team. It has come from board of finnish hockey federation, but also players have wondered Summanen`s hard demands in practises etc.

Janne Niinimaa chose to left Team Finland today because of lack of chemistry between him and Team Finland heaf coach Raimo Summanen. Niinimaa won't be in use of Team Finland in the World Cup any further. Niinimaa attended in the team's practice that ended at 1pm local time and left after the practice. Team Finlad spokeperson says Team Finland regrets the incident.

Wow, this was a total schocker! :eek:

I know Niinimaa wasn't our best d-man but imo he was very good one. This was a blow to us but luckily we have few d-men waiting for a chance and this just good be a chance to Pitkänen. How this affects the team spirit is left to be seen. This could also be bad to head coach Summanen. I'm guessing Niinimaa won't play for Finland as long as Summanen remains as the head coach.

That sucks for Finland;he's a good player.

Too bad. He's rock solid on the blue line.

I hope Summanen takes Pitkänen in and keeps Berg scrathed.
This was a big suprise.

How this affects the team spirit is left to be seen. This could also be bad to head coach Summanen. I'm guessing Niinimaa won't play for Finland as long as Summanen remains as the head coach.

It`s sure that Niinimaa wont play anymore under Summanen coaching. Summanen`s personality isn`t the most pollite and correct, far a way from it. This sure will affect to Summanen`s continuing as head for Finland. Earlier this week there was talking that Summanen will get fired after WC, but those talks were canceled by press. So maybe this accident will put more pressure to fire Summanen.

Oh well, not a big loss, but still it's not nice to see him go. Well, maybe now Pitkänen will get a chance to show what he can do. :)

I hope Summanen takes Pitkänen in and keeps Berg scrathed.
This was a big suprise.

What I have read biggest reason to scrathe Berg in the first place, was that he had lower body injury. Now they say he is okay. So I would assume that Berg will be in the roster, altought I would like to see what Pitkänen can do against Germany.

It will be interesting to see who Summanen will bring to the team after this? Or does he bring anybody? Petteri Nummelin and Antti-Jussi Niemi were alternatives with Niinimaa when Summanen chosed replace man for Karalahti. Situation is pretty complicated cause for example Nummelin may have done any skating this summer cause he wasn`t selected to team. And all in a sudden somebody needs to take a place in a roster, if they are planning to bring someone in.

Raimo Summanen strikes again. Burn those bridges, Raimo, let `em burn!!


:(

Niinimaa can easily be replaced, but I'm more worried about how this will affect the team spirit. It's been a good tournament for us so far and I hope the rest of the players can pull it together by tomorrow evening and face Germany with full force. I don't like this at all. :shakehead

This is huge, I can`t remeber when was the last time finnish hockey player didn`t want to play in national team because of the coach.
During the Pentti Matikainen era were the latest this kind of incidents.

I am really sad and surprised because I thought Summanen and Niinimaa were more friends than Summanen with most of the team...

I am really sad and surprised because I thought Summanen and Niinimaa were more friends than Summanen with most of the team...

Ehm... from where did you fetch this impression? I had completely different image of their relations, for example little over week ago in an interwiev for local newspaper (Kaleva) Niinimaa told that he at first turned down Summanen´s invitation to join the team after Karalahti´s right to play was denied because he was so angry to not make the team in the first place.

first I don't see my favorite player in this tournament, Sami kapenen, and then have to settle for his younger brother, now Janne Niinamaa!, c'mon.. I'm a huge fan of finish hockey players and two of my favorites aren't there anymore. I for one think that the loss of Niinamaa will be felt greatly as he looked very solid back there, adding alittle offensive punch. I'm sure they will get his lost eventually but it isn't going to be a walk in the park from here on end.

PS. anyone know the REAL reason Sami Kapenen isn't there?

Sami Kapanen has had a lot of injuries and isn't it top form at the moment. And btw, Niko Kapanen isn't related to Sami at all.

Sami had a LONG season and needs his rest.

Anybody know if they're going to play Pitkanen?

I am not sure, but I remember that Summanen and Niinimaa had quite serious fight in Sm- Liiga finals when Summanen was playing with TPS and Niinimaa with Jokerit. So their antipathy could be this old... ?

I also think that Galgarys Ville Nieminen has always had some problems with Summanen. Im quite sure that he is not going to play any games in this tournament.

I am not sure, but I remember that Summanen and Niinimaa had quite serious fight in Sm- Liiga finals when Summanen was playing with TPS and Niinimaa with Jokerit. So their antipathy could be this old... ?

I also think that Galgarys Ville Nieminen has always had some problems with Summanen. Im quite sure that he is not going to play any games in this tournament.

Well according to Helsingin Sanomat(finnish newspaper), Nieminen is going to replace Antti Laaksonen in the next game(against Germany).

I am not sure, but I remember that Summanen and Niinimaa had quite serious fight in Sm- Liiga finals when Summanen was playing with TPS and Niinimaa with Jokerit. So their antipathy could be this old... ?

I also think that Galgarys Ville Nieminen has always had some problems with Summanen. Im quite sure that he is not going to play any games in this tournament.

Exactly why I have questioned him. How can you play Jarkko Ruutu over Nieminen when they are similar defensively, both agitators, and with Nieminen being both a better skater and having WAY better hands? Also Nieminen has been to two Stanley Cup finals, winning once, he knows what it takes to win.

I think Niinimaa is a bigger loss than some are letting on here. remember this is NHL size rinks, not International size. I will give you guys like Salo and Timmonen on an international size, but Niinimaas style is better suited to these rinks and he has proven to be more capable of a higher level of play in this style of game than any other Finnish Dman except Teppo back in his prime (and ok upon further thought a case can be made for Timmonen, but Im not sold on Timmonen over Niinimaa). I dont think Niinimaa can be replaced easily.

IMO this is no big deal, honestly. I said it before and still do that Janne is in a low point in his career. Being dumped by Oil can't have helped and I think he's still reeling from it. There's been too much talk about his off-ice antics too. He's going to need to get his a** in the gear and he knows it too.

His performance so far in this tournament hasn't been anything much to write home about. He may be able to hold his own on the offensive blue line (not that he's racked up the points tho) but in the own end he's been a nerve-wrecker. His speciality so far have been half-hearted clearance attempts along the boards that always seem to end up in the opposition's hands.

The only reason I would have wanted him on board is insurance, it's not like we have too many passable defencemen in the roster, but if it's come to this, then so be it. It's always better to step out if you don't feel you can give your 100% to the team.
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Now if only Berg's so-called "knee injury" wouldn't go through a magical recovery we'd be all right with Pitkanen stepping in. But that must be too much to hope for, I am afraid. As long as Jarkko Ruutu remains out of the rink and in row Q, I will be happy with the lesser of the two evils. :D

Niinmaa was decent so far. Not bad, but not at his best. Still, losing him is a blow.

If they get a replacement, I can't see them turning to anybody else than Toni Söderholm. Smaller than most, but he makes up for it in feistyness and character. Besides, he woudn't complain about being in the press box or little ice-time. In fact he could provide a nice spark to the team..

What I'm concerned about, is how does the team react to this? If it collapses because of players feeling Summanen messed too much with Niinimaa, then I can see Summanen's reign as coach ending and Jortikka appointed (he should have been head coach in the first place..)

*The official reason for not appointing Jortikka was that he asked for too much $$$, but then they appointed Summanen, Westerlund and Kurri.. 3 men for the job who as a whole make more than Jortikka requested..

Erm... if Summanen is thought too edgy, outspoken and lacking in people skills, I am not sure Jortikka should be considered an upgrade. Not in those departments, anyway. ;)

Erm... if Summanen is thought too edgy, outspoken and lacking in people skills, I am not sure Jortikka should be considered an upgrade. Not in those departments, anyway. ;)

Maybe true, but I think Jortikka would get away with it.. this was posted by someone on jatkoaika :

Jos haluaa olla yhtä mulkku ihmisenä kuin Jortikka, niin sitten pitäisi olla edes puoliksi niin menestynyt.

"If you want to be a jerk of a person like Jortikka, then you have to be at least half as successful."

Midas, despite being very similar to Summanen, would have a lot more respect from the players thanks to more championship medals than most hockey players can count to.. Summanen, on the other hand only had 2 SM-Liiga medals, and both needed teams of overwhelming firepower to get them.

Midas has 6. Finland can't afford to experiment with this or that coach, if someone is as qualified for the job as Jortikka is, then we have no choice but to appoint him and see how he does. Unless ofcourse, Kummola can persuade Scotty Bowman to come..


btw, someone said that Aamulehti had reported that there were upto 3 players considering quitting the team.. anybody read this morning's Aamulehti and can verify that?
If there's a player revolt brewing, then Summanen's history even if he wins the world cup.

Erm... if Summanen is thought too edgy, outspoken and lacking in people skills, I am not sure Jortikka should be considered an upgrade. Not in those departments, anyway. ;)

I don`t agree in here. Jortikka even if he can be somehow jerk, has better skills with people than Summanen. Jortikka can be hard to players, but not too hard. He respect players and what they are doing even if he doesn`t let it show that easily. He doesn`t judge and say bad things about players that much and even if he says I think there is always little humour behind that. Otherwise than Summanen who seems to have no place for humor at all, it`s almoust seems there is no place for laugh if you wanna be his this team. If you laugh it shows to Summanen your not givin 100% of yourself to the ice.

Now Niinimaa says (mtv3) the reason he left was, that he couldn`t stand Summanen`s behavior towards players.

Now Niinimaa says (mtv3) the reason he left was, that he couldn`t stand Summanen`s behavior towards players.

Maybe Janne isn't used to hear shouting at half-times.

Summanen can be a total psycho sometimes, he appears calm and collected in front of the cameras but when gets to lockerroom he blows his fuse and totally loses it, becoming a raging maniac for the next hour or so. I've heard this from inside sources that his personal skills are close to zero and he's always close to losing it for no apparent reason. Back when he was playing for Ilves he once trashed a lockerroom because of a bad period.

I have lots and lots of respect for Janne, he has always been a 100% teamplayer who has never quit his team so this is a huge shock for me and just confirms what kind of an ******* Summanen can be.

Remember that Summanen has already been criticized by sponsors of the national team for being basicly being a jerk & lacking both communication & personal skills.

The issue with Summanen is respect. If you want to be a tough discplinarian you need that and judging from what I've heard he doesn't have it.

First of all the guy lies with a straight face. Regarding the incident someone mentioned when Summanen was a still player, it was 1995 (I think) and the game was the second final between Jokerit (Niinimaa of the current national players) and TPS (Koivu, Lehtinen, Timonen, Salo and Berg) TPS midget Niko Mikkola tried to run Jokerit star center Otacar Janecky who in his casual way raised his elbow to receive the hit (I miss Otto so much...) Mikkola fell to the ice, Summanen (TPS) stormed out the bench, and a bench-clearing brawl took place where among other fights Niinimaa fought Grönman. Summanen insisted he had just come in for a regular shift, in which case he planned to play the shift without stick or glowes. I was there, about ten rows up from TPS bench.

Next up, TPS against HIFK in 1999 (?) finals coached by Westerlund with Summanen as an assistant. HIFK had gooned their way to the title last year (Jokinen, J Ruutu, Timonen, Lydman) but TPS (Eloranta, Kiprusoff) coached by Jortikka refused to be intimated. In third game or something like that Jarkko Ruutu charges Kiprusoff, and is villanized by the press. HIFK still looses the finals. At a later date, Ruutu says Summanen ordered him to do that, which Summanen denies. The word-by-mouth you get from players is that Ruutu is right.

Before taking over the national team, Summanen coached Jokerit. The rumor is that Tuomo Ruutu and Jukka Hentunen among others eventually left the team because of his methods. Summanen has relationships going to back to his playing days with the older players (Selänne, Koivu, Lehtinen, Timonen, Berg, Niinimaa, Salo, Peltonen, Numminen) and has coached the jounger ones at either HIFK, Jokerit or U-20 team (T Ruutu, J Ruutu, Lydman, Vaananen, Hentunen, Jokinen, Lehtonen, N Kapanen, Hagman), actually the only ones of the current team he hasn't to my knowledge coached or played with before becoming national team head coach are Pitkänen, Hahl, Laaksonen, Nieminen, Kiprusoff and Toskala. (Notice a pattern here?) Given his personality, it is hardly suprising that there is some accumulated bad blood.

Midas, despite being very similar to Summanen, would have a lot more respect from the players thanks to more championship medals than most hockey players can count to.. Summanen, on the other hand only had 2 SM-Liiga medals, and both needed teams of overwhelming firepower to get them.


Then again, with all due respect, SM-Liiga success means precious little in international play. Let alone the World Cup. You can win all the domestic championships in the world yet this is another world we are talking about. It's not like Jortikka's Swedish visit was a blinding success either.

I am not saying Summanen is the ultimate solution and judging from the reports this may well be the last we see of him regardless of the outcome in the tournament. However I strongly disagree that we have stronger alternatives aplenty waiting in the wings, and this includes Jortikka. Calling the man an instant recipe for success is wishful thinking at best.

As for Niinimaa, unfortunately this is a label that he's going to carry with him for a long, long time. It's a red flag to NHL coaches and GMs alike. It's one thing to be critical of the coach, but to walk out on a team just as the tournament is getting started? He will be tested and tested hard once NHL is under way once again. How will he react to criticism? Will he stand up and face the heat, or melt under pressure?

I'm not saying Jortikka is an instant recipe for success.

With Oulu's winning coach from last season now in Russia (probably hard to get out of contract?) and will probbaly want to prove himself there too (would be good to have future finland head coach get success elsewhere..).

Jortikka's CV is just too good to ignore. Jääkiekkoliitto would have a very hard time appointing someone else for the job. And to be fair, the best man for the job, on paper, must get a chance before we take risks.

An interesting take on the situation, coming up pro-Summanen in contrast with most of mainstream media:

http://www.jatkoaika.com/maajoukkue.php?sivu=kolumnit&id=2384

All in Finnish but choice tidbits follow:

"At the moment it looks like head coach Summanen's person and coaching methods have come as a surprise to all and sundry. Summanen has never been everyone's pal and well liked all across the land. Yet sometimes borderline psychopathic Summanen has something to back him up: results."

"Summanen gets everything out of the players at his disposal and a place in the semis calls only for a probable win against Germany. Summanen's managed to instill the required attitude in his players, and as a result Finland is playing aggressive, mobile and enjoyable hockey."

"After the Sweden game, Summanen stated he's going to give feedback to the players in order to wake up the guys still sleepwalking in stupor and bring them in line with the rest of the team who are giving their all. Niinimaa couldn't come up with what Summanen demands from all his players. Animosity between player and coach dated back to first team selections, when Summanen preferred Jere Karalahti over well-experienced Niinimaa."

"What happened in the talks between the two has no significance. Niinimaa's departure was not a result of the words spoken. It lies in the hurt pride of a star defenceman, resulting in poor preparations and, as a direct consequence, poor match performance that Summanen could not approve."

"If someone is not prepared to listen to feedback, sometimes pointed, coming from the coaches, it may be about time to consider dropping out of games that call for complete dedication and 100% attitude. If a player's ego can't take being left in reserves, it's high time to think of your position in the team."

"If a sports journalist or a hockey federation suit is more interested in having Team Finland steered by a conflict-free, smooth-talking comments machine than achieving real success against the best the world has to offer, they as well most stop to consider their own motives."

Also from Jatkoaika column:

"Niinimaa isn`t the first people Summanen has managed to get angry because of his behaivior or actions. Head coach only lives for one thing: winning."

Summanen lives only for one thing: winningn. That is his biggest strenght and weaknes at the same time. He gets the most out of players, but at the same time he seeds grains of anger and bitterness. At some point it`s inevitable that anger and bitternes will tear up the team.

a bit more from jatkoaika

Niinimaa's departure is the final straw for the national media, which is ready to serve Summanens head on a plate - preferably as soon as possible.

Maybe only winning the tournament can buy Summanen more time as head coach of Finland.

Summanen's supporters are nowhere to be found. Niinimaa abandoned the team at its most critical hour and the noose is being redies, however it's for Summanen's neck. Even hockey federation chairman Kalerko Kummola is considering the head coach's position after the World Cup ends. In Finnish/English this means that the hockey federation is already writing up the press memo of his sacking.

As for Niinimaa, unfortunately this is a label that he's going to carry with him for a long, long time. It's a red flag to NHL coaches and GMs alike. It's one thing to be critical of the coach, but to walk out on a team just as the tournament is getting started? He will be tested and tested hard once NHL is under way once again. How will he react to criticism? Will he stand up and face the heat, or melt under pressure?

Or as a poster in the Islanders board put it ever so succintly: "Janne doesn't like the coach so he quit on the team. Thoughts?"

That's the question that will be asked over and over again. Hope it has been worth it.

What I wonder more, is how this affects tonights game.

I can imagine Kummola making 30 odd calls to all the players and coaching staff after this incident.. now, it only needs 1 person to tell him what happened, thats what? 3.5% chance? Pretty good odds that someoen tells him everything.

So, what would Kummola do next? I can imagine a call to Summanen saying "one more player walks and you're sacked mid-tournament, we cant afford to lose anymore" and then instructing Kurri and Westerlund to keep Summanen in check..

How does that affect teams play on ice if Summanen blows his top during an intermission? Does Westerlund or Kurri step in and intervene and "take control for rest of the match"?

Anyway you put it, this is a bad situation for Finland to be in right now. Having clouds in dressing room is worst poison they could drink.

No matter how successful/good/great the coach, if the star players wont play for him, then his days are over. It's no good having a national team with the best coach but 2nd grade players..

"Yet sometimes borderline psychopathic Summanen has something to back him up: results."
He has? What exactly, U20 gold? If you are Scotty Bowman or even Mike Keenan, you get away with a lot, Raimo Summanen on the other hand... If Summanen and co. can deliver results, all is relatively well, if not...

"Summanen's managed to instill the required attitude in his players, and as a result Finland is playing aggressive, mobile and enjoyable hockey."
Finland has been playing aggressive, mobile and enjoyable hockey for a very long time. Comparatively, current team looks somewhat timid and slow.

"Animosity between player and coach dated back to first team selections, when Summanen preferred Jere Karalahti over well-experienced Niinimaa."
I think the real rub is being dismissed in favor of Aki Berg, not Karalahti. Or if we are talking about home games disasters, how about Lydman and Väänänen? Both playing OK now too.

"It lies in the hurt pride of a star defenceman, resulting in poor preparations and, as a direct consequence, poor match performance that Summanen could not approve."
Niinimaa was OK against Sweden, not great but OK. Salo has been great for the whole tournament, some credit needs to go to his partner too. The guys who really diserved a whipping (and got it?) were Numminen and Timonen for not doing a damn thing on fourth and first goal respectively.

"If someone is not prepared to listen to feedback, sometimes pointed, coming from the coaches, it may be about time to consider dropping out of games that call for complete dedication and 100% attitude. If a player's ego can't take being left in reserves, it's high time to think of your position in the team."
Somehow I've never considered lack of dedication and effort the problem with the Lions. Top Finnish players tend to be a hard working bunch almost without an exception, Niinimaa certainly included. Crediting Summanen with that is not fair to anyone.

Summanen and Westerlund are good coaches, more specificly game leading and strategy are their strenghts, but I've always attributed that more to Westerlund who to my knowledge is the brains on the operation. There is bit of Mike Keenan in them, players tend to respond either very well or very badly to their coaching. This is fine on a club team where they can hand pick the players they want, it might be a problem on the national team where they are basicly dealt a ready hand to play with.

Or as a poster in the Islanders board put it ever so succintly: "Janne doesn't like the coach so he quit on the team. Thoughts?"

That's the question that will be asked over and over again. Hope it has been worth it.

Well Janne isn`t the first player to do so. Usually it has been russian or chech player who wont join in to the team because of a coach or drop out of team because of a coach. I don`t think this will affect so much to Janne`s NHL career.....but I think this will sure affect to Summanen`s NHL career as a coach. I believe I have read somewhere that Summanen goal is to be NHL coach someday. Now it seems that he maid a lot harm to his dream come true.

Summanen's supporters are nowhere to be found. Niinimaa abandoned the team at its most critical hour and the noose is being redies, however it's for Summanen's neck. Even hockey federation chairman Kalerko Kummola is considering the head coach's position after the World Cup ends. In Finnish/English this means that the hockey federation is already writing up the press memo of his sacking.

This is in obvious reference to Kummola's remarks that MTV3/Iltalehti/Aamulehti media group has been busy making the most of. The columnist makes it clear that he doesn't agree, but what can you do.

This is a sad reminder of the realities of the equalitarian utopia called Finland that we inhabit. Everyone must have a good time and no one should get hurt. The boss mustn't issue orders, let alone criticize people who are not performing. We should all just sit together by the open fire and talk things over. The world will be a much better place afterwards. Too bad winning doesn't fit in the equation.

I just wonder how many Flames players walked out on the team after Darryl Sutter let out a barrage of choice expletives after a particularly poor performance. And where it landed them.

Well Janne isn`t the first player to do so. Usually it has been russian or chech player who wont join in to the team because of a coach or drop out of team because of a coach.

Halfway through the tournament just as the playoffs are getting started?

Halfway through the tournament just as the playoffs are getting started?

My main point was that I don`t think this will affect to Niinimaa`s NHL career that much.

Next up, TPS against HIFK in 1999 (?) finals coached by Westerlund with Summanen as an assistant. HIFK had gooned their way to the title last year (Jokinen, J Ruutu, Timonen, Lydman) but TPS (Eloranta, Kiprusoff) coached by Jortikka refused to be intimated. In third game or something like that Jarkko Ruutu charges Kiprusoff, and is villanized by the press. HIFK still looses the finals. At a later date, Ruutu says Summanen ordered him to do that, which Summanen denies. The word-by-mouth you get from players is that Ruutu is right.



To be fair, charging a goalie is pretty Ruutu-ish by nature. He IS capable of doing that on his own.

This is a sad reminder of the realities of the equalitarian utopia called Finland that we inhabit. Everyone must have a good time and no one should get hurt. The boss mustn't issue orders, let alone criticize people who are not performing. We should all just sit together by the open fire and talk things over. The world will be a much better place afterwards. Too bad winning doesn't fit in the equation.
Off-topic, but this is complete nonsense. I work for a subsidary of an American company in Finland. Over here, when something isn't working we admit it. From the corporate side, there are never any problems, only "challenges", no mistakes are admitted, nobody takes responsibility, you never get a straight answer on any hard question and so on... To the extent that the idea makes any sense, we may have various national phychological short comings, but lack of criticism or general over-sensitivity to others feelings are not among them.

I think the real rub is being dismissed in favor of Aki Berg, not Karalahti. Or if we are talking about home games disasters, how about Lydman and Väänänen? Both playing OK now too.


I think team selection owes a lot to Jarmo Kekalainen's scouting work over the NHL season. Summanen is said to value him highly. It is not much of a reach to suggest that both Lydman and Vaananen got good grades from Kekalainen, while Niinimaa didn't.

Somehow I've never considered lack of dedication and effort the problem with the Lions. Top Finnish players tend to be a hard working bunch almost without an exception, Niinimaa certainly included. Crediting Summanen with that is not fair to anyone.


The columnist is not talking in general terms or of past performances, but what's going on here and now. Walking out on the team shows lack of commitment, simple as that. It's a matter of putting yourself ahead of the team. Having a tantrum instead of biting the bullet.

Summanen and Westerlund are good coaches, more specificly game leading and strategy are their strenghts, but I've always attributed that more to Westerlund who to my knowledge is the brains on the operation.


True, and Summanen is the heart. You need both.

To be fair, charging a goalie is pretty Ruutu-ish by nature. He IS capable of doing that on his own.
I have no doubts about it, but pretty much everyone agrees that in this case Summanen told him to do it. And while I don't care for such tactics, it's not that he did that, it's that he isn't man enough to admit it that bothers me.

Off-topic, but this is complete nonsense. I work for a subsidary of an American company in Finland. Over here, when something isn't working we admit it. From the corporate side, there are never any problems, only "challenges", no mistakes are admitted, nobody takes responsibility, you never get a straight answer on any hard question and so on... To the extent that the idea makes any sense, we may have various national phychological short comings, but lack of criticism or general over-sensitivity to others feelings are not among them.

Just to get a point of reference, let's say that a #5 defender walked out on a NHL team on the eve of the playoffs, citing personal issues with the coach. How many NHL GMs would rush out in the public to call for "respect between coach and players" and state that the position of the coach would be re-evaluated after the playoffs are over? In fact, how many NHL GMs would be able to hold onto their own seats if they came up with destabilizing statements like that at such a crucial hour? But this is Finland, where things are different.

Incidentally, Team USA has just had a similar incident after Wilson benched Brett Hull. He stormed out of the next team practice, uttering curses to waiting reporters. You could say that losing a player of Brett Hull's calibre would hurt Team USA. Meanwhile coach Wilson won't back down, he's not promising him a place in the roster in the next game either. But after the initial burst, Brett is keeping his trap shut. He's not distancing himself from the team, or distracting their focus with stupid press statements. Instead, a senior player (Doug Weight) is giving conciliatory interviews. No USHF bigwig has seen a need to steal the stage and get involved. It's a team issue, and it remains within the team. If this is the American way, I will take it any day.

Walking out on the team shows lack of commitment, simple as that. It's a matter of putting yourself ahead of the team. Having a tantrum instead of biting the bullet.


Well, what I know about Niinimaa, what I have heard what I have seen. Niinimaa is for and most team player who gives 100% of himslef to the team. Great happy guy, who is very liked among other team members. I can`t belive he thinks he is putting himself ahed of the team, noway!

We haven`t yet got information that did Summanen actully insult Niinimaa or was it some other players. Well we can assume that Summanen did insult Niinimaa, because Niinimaa left. But could it also be that Summane did insult other players and that is why Niinmaa left, to show support for his team mates. Well that is a long shot and maybe not the truth.

Anyway, lets take a case where Summanen did insult Niinimaa somehow. Let`s think that Niinimaa thinks of his own that he did play good game. He did give 100% to the team, played as good as he can. Then after the game Summanen shout to him that: "Yóu f'cking as*hole, why don`t give all you got to the ice! You are *****ing defective! What the h*ll you doing in my team?! I will f*vking sure scratch you to next match!!" What does a man think in that sitution? Knowing you can`t do any better, you did give everything you`ve got. Then coach just shouts to you who bad player you are....well I don`t know what has happened there, but I am sure Niinimaa didn`t leave because of little things. In NHL he has for sure heard all kind of **** from coahces. He wont be upset easily, Summanen has really done something..........

Well, what I know about Niinimaa, what I have heard what I have seen. Niinimaa is for and most team player who gives 100% of himslef to the team. Great happy guy, who is very liked among other team members. I can`t belive he thinks he is putting himself ahed of the team, noway!

You're not getting my point. What may or may not have been said is irrelevant. The same goes for player personalities and past performances.

Regardless of whatever abuse Janne may have taken, and whether it's groundless or not (both questions that we don't have the answers for), he should have bitten the bullet. That would have been in the best interest of the team. He didn't, and chose to come out with his dirty linen instead, smack in the middle of the most important tournament in years.

My question is, why? Are you seriously saying that this was necessary, there was no way around it? That Summanen will now see the wrong in his ways and become a different person overnight? That the team will benefit from this immensely, and will go on to beat Canada in the finals, which they couldn't have done without Janne's personal sacrifice?

As said, a childish tantrum, and a case of putting your own pride ahead of the good of the team. I am going to answer my own question: the only person who can possibly benefit from this is Janne himself. He can say "I told you so" after Team Finland is out of the tournament, regardless of what stage this takes place in. Sad but true.

Edit: oops, a small but crucial typo

You're not getting my point. What may or may not have been said is irrelevant. The same goes for player personalities and past performances.

Regardless of whatever abuse Janne may have taken, and whether it's groundless or not (both questions that we don't have the answers for), he should have bitten the bullet. That would have been in the best interest of the team. He didn't, and chose to come out with his dirty linen instead, smack in the middle of the most important tournament in years.

My question is, why? Are you seriously saying that this was necessary, there was no way around it? That Summanen will now see the wrong in his ways and become a different person overnight? That the team will benefit from this immensely, and will go on to beat Canada in the finals, which they couldn't have done without Janne's personal sacrifice?

As said, a childish tantrum, and a case of putting your own pride ahead of the good of the team. I am going to answer my own question: the only person who can possibly benefit from this is Janne himself. He can say "I told you say" after Team Finland is out of the tournament, regardless of what stage this takes place in. Sad but true.

I don't buy that.
I see Niinimaa as a professional who'se taken a lot of abuse by coaches over his near 10 year NHL career and withstood that. Summanen is a character we know who can be insane at times. If he went too far he went too far, at that point Niinimaa's options are to stay and pollute the team athmosphere or leave and hope it relives tention.
He left.

That takes guts, but it is the right decision. The last thing a team needs is a player sulking because of what the coach said or did to him. That's one thing here not considered btw.. what if it isn't what Summanen said but did? Didn't Beckham want a transfer after Fergie kicked a boot into his head? What if Summanen did somehting like that?
Also for the Brett Hull comparison, if his problem is with coach and not getting ice-time and they deal with it like adults, it's not comparable if the Niinimaa situation is over something other than spoken things. Though I must state that that is only speculation that I formented now purely for the sake of "it's possible.."

News reports that allude at inside information do point the finger at Summanen quite a bit. While the media would be overjoyed to get rid of him, and such a story is wonderful for sales.. Not all journalists would go out there and bash him (Summanen) just because..

There's more to this story than has been told, we'll hear about it later (after tournament according to Niinimaa).

If the reports of a almost player revolt are true, then we can quite safely assume that Summanen's only a coach today because the tournaments still going and some are only in the team still because they see the need to see the tournament through.

Bottom line is we dont know everything, and must wait and see for the rest of the story. But something unheathy has happened, who is more guilty is unknown.

To be fair, charging a goalie is pretty Ruutu-ish by nature. He IS capable of doing that on his own.

Well, you have to be specialized on something.

If Janne felt for whatever reason that he couldn't work with Summanen for a single minute more, he could have gone quietly. Undisclosed injury or whatever, in NHL they do it all the time.

Instead he turned it into a media show, making it clear how he is walking out of his own free will etc. If he wants to have the last word after the tournament, he could have had it then. Now wasn't the time or the place.

Oh and BTW, if there really is a player revolt brewing, let's please stir up the unrest for another week or so. I sure like the results it's producing.

he should have bitten the bullet. That would have been in the best interest of the team. He didn't, and chose to come out with his dirty linen instead, smack in the middle of the most important tournament in years.

He should have bitten the bullet and stayed with the team? But the damage has happend, either he would have stayed with the team or not. If Niinimaa would have stayd with team, he wouldn`t anyway put his best performance. None person who isn`t happy and comfortable can do their best.
How this team would have benefit if Niinimaa had stayed? I believe the tightness between Summanen and Niinimaa must have shown. Do you think that it doesn`t affect to the team if there is player and coach in the locker room who hate each other? Of course Summanen could have scratch Niinimaa and put him to press box, but still everyone on that team is aware of the situation. Everyone knows the chemistry in this team isn`t like it should be.


My question is, why? Are you seriously saying that this was necessary, there was no way around it? That Summanen will now see the wrong in his ways and become a different person overnight? That the team will benefit from this immensely, and will go on to beat Canada in the finals, which they couldn't have done without Janne's personal sacrifice?

I didn`t say it was neccesary, it was a grown man decicion. Like I said earlier, even Niinimaa would have stayed with the damage already had happened. You can`t say which could have been better, the thing that Niinimaa left team or that he wouldn have stayed with the team.
I think Summanen will never change, but sure it wasn`t Niinimaa`s idea to show Summanen how wrong he is. Niinimaa just refused to take that **** from Summanen, it was his decision. Also TK79 wrote that Niinimaa wasn`t the only player who felt leaving the team is the best solution. We will see will team Finland broke up. Sure I don`t hope it, but it seems that Summanen`s coaching methods wont be used after this in national team. There is already four players who wont like to play under Summanen. He can`t coach national team anymore longer, cause in World Championships we will see that majority of our NHLer will refuse to play in national team.

He can`t coach national team anymore longer, cause in World Championships we will see that majority of our NHLer will refuse to play in national team.

Yes.
If world championship team is year after year basically this:
best european based Finnish players
+ 5 or 6 NHL players

Now, every year a few NHL players say "need a break", "am too injured", "want to spend time with wife" and dont particiape in world championships whihc leavues us with that 5-6 year after year.
Now, Imagine fo those 5-6 some 2.5 guys dislike Summanen (2 so much that they dont come, 0.5 dislike Summanen a lot but still come) then we have European Finnish players + 2.5 NHL players.. surely not enough to get results needed from World Championships unless all other teams also only have 2-3 NHL players..

Since we only have 1 world championship gold, every one more we can get is an important milestone for Finnish hockey.. not competing for them properly because players hate coach, is reason to sack coach imho.

But let's finish this tournament first, and let's all cross our fingers that more players don't quit the team. After that, we can see what happens and how many like/dislike/hate Summanen.

But let's finish this tournament first, and let's all cross our fingers that more players don't quit the team. After that, we can see what happens and how many like/dislike/hate Summanen.

Yes, that is what we need to hope. I am still cheering for this team and Summanen. I just wonder what kind is the team spirit at the moment. Even Finland would won the hole competiotion, will the players be satisfied? If team spirit is close to zero and everyone are more and less annoied in locker room. Can you enjoy of the victory? Does a victory mean anything when there is dispute around the team? Don`t we play, because we want to have good memories even if we lose. Like we played in a great team which had great atmosphere, we did our best it just wasn`t enough. I think players enjoy more, when there is a great spirit around team even if they lose than win something in a ****** team.......but for us, fans it`s all about winning. Nothing else matters.

You folks do realize that it makes no sense at all to worry about future Worlds, which is a second-string international tourney anyway, when the World Cup of Hockey is under way? The one with all the best pros competing, not just leftovers who can't cut the grade in the rough world that is NHL playoffs? If Finland were to go all the way, I would gladly accept a punitary 10 years in C championships playing Andorra and Azerbaidjan year in, year out. Honestly.

Besides judging from the knee-jerk reaction of head honcho Kummola, himself an immovable object in more ways than one if there ever was any, the blood-thirsty hordes are getting their wish. Summanen will be bought out of his contract after the tournament, and poor Janne will get a deserved second chance to redeem himself. No more meanness and badmouthing, it's back to the halcyon days all over again. So what's with all the worry?

The Beckham analogy is silly. Yes, Sir Alex has never been one to bite his lip or mind his manners when he's felt the need. But Beckham and others have stood up with him for a decade, taking the heat when it's been coming only to return to the pitch after that, full aware that it's the players themselves who need to turn a match around, not some old geezer yelling by the sideline.

Incidentally, when Fergie arrived at Old Trafford, he was a virtual nobody, much like Summanen. But he stood his ground, never took c**p from anyone, and elevated the team to untold riches, while putting an end to Liverpool's domestic domination and restoring the glory days of Busby boys. The rest, as they say, is history.

One boot, airborne or not, certainly didn't send Beckham out of United. You are ignoring the lure of the Bernabeu and arguably the best club side in the world, not to mention the once-in-a-lifetime chance to join fellow galacticos in the act of rewriting football history. Oh and 100k pounds a week surely didn't hurt either.

What is Janne leaving the team for? A chance to fry sausages and listen to black metal with fellow airheads?

You folks do realize that it makes no sense at all to worry about future Worlds, which is a second-string international tourney anyway, when the World Cup of Hockey is under way? The one with all the best pros competing, not just leftovers who can't cut the grade in the rough world that is NHL playoffs? If Finland were to go all the way, I would gladly accept a punitary 10 years in C championships playing Andorra and Azerbaidjan year in, year out. Honestly.

Besides judging from the knee-jerk reaction of head honcho Kummola, himself an immovable object in more ways than one if there ever was any, the blood-thirsty hordes are getting their wish. Summanen will be bought out of his contract after the tournament, and poor Janne will get a deserved second chance to redeem himself. No more meanness and badmouthing, it's back to the halcyon days all over again. So what's with all the worry?

World Championships are important. Because 1995 is still the high point of Finnish Hockey history. Now, when we have 2 or 3 world championships golds, then we can call it 2nd grade competition. But until then, we need another gold or two to give nation and players the feeling that we are an elite nation, and dont suffer from confidence issues against Sweden/Czechs etc..

You folks do realize that it makes no sense at all to worry about future Worlds, which is a second-string international tourney anyway, when the World Cup of Hockey is under way?

Besides judging from the knee-jerk reaction of head honcho Kummola, himself an immovable object in more ways than one if there ever was any, the blood-thirsty hordes are getting their wish. Summanen will be bought out of his contract after the tournament, and poor Janne will get a deserved second chance to redeem himself. No more meanness and badmouthing, it's back to the halcyon days all over again. So what's with all the worry?

I am not worrying about future Worlds, I just said it`s impossible that Summanen will lead this team that long. Too many players aren`t happy with his way to lead the team. But let him just finnish this WC and hope for the best. He may be good at tactics, but lack of skills in leading the team is too much.

I don`t like Kummola either, he`s samekind of dictator like Summanen is when he is coahing the team. We have good coaches for replacement to Summanen. He isn`t that kind of rainmaker.

The Beckham analogy is silly. Yes, Sir Alex has never been one to bite his lip or mind his manners when he's felt the need. But Beckham and others have stood up with him for a decade, taking the heat when it's been coming only to return to the pitch after that, full aware that it's the players themselves who need to turn a match around, not some old geezer yelling by the sideline.

Incidentally, when Fergie arrived at Old Trafford, he was a virtual nobody, much like Summanen. But he stood his ground, never took c**p from anyone, and elevated the team to untold riches, while putting an end to Liverpool's domestic domination and restoring the glory days of Busby boys. The rest, as they say, is history.

One boot, airborne or not, certainly didn't send Beckham out of United. You are ignoring the lure of the Bernabeu and arguably the best club side in the world, not to mention the once-in-a-lifetime chance to join fellow galacticos in the act of rewriting football history. Oh and 100k pounds a week surely didn't hurt either.

What is Janne leaving the team for? A chance to fry sausages and listen to black metal with fellow airheads?

Beckham earned more at United. He was more visibly marketed, although salary=less then, he surely made far more $$$ from sponsors then than he does now. So finances didn't make him move to Bernabeu.
A boot into the head, well, if it was on purpose it would underline a relationship torn apart, if by accident it would suggest that Beckham was unhappy with the apology he got (if any). Surely a bigger motivation in leaving his boyhood dream club than the money of Madrid.

Now, a boot kicked into Niinimaa's head? Isn't it very similar situation? that's all I was saying. Although boot in this case would probably be water bottle..
But if you're professional athlete and you get humiliated by coach, at some point enough is enough. Having been so long in NHL and successfully so, I doubt it was verbal abuse. Unless it went way too far.

If Janne felt for whatever reason that he couldn't work with Summanen for a single minute more, he could have gone quietly. Undisclosed injury or whatever, in NHL they do it all the time.

Instead he turned it into a media show, making it clear how he is walking out of his own free will etc. If he wants to have the last word after the tournament, he could have had it then. Now wasn't the time or the place.


It wasn't Niinimaa who made this a media show, far from it. He couldn't play with Summanen as coach and made the only right decision. "undisclosed injury" would have only lead to neverending rumormongering about poor teamspirit which would have eaten the morale of the team. Janne left the team and this allows it to fully concentrate on the remaining games.

It took guts from Janne and after the games are over Summanen will have to explain his actions to Kummola & others.

If the Aamulehti story is true, 3 other finnish players are close to leaving the team as well. Poor game against Germany and this whole thing will explode like a nuclear bomb.

While Becks earns gazillions in salary alone, his marketing value far exceeds that. The last estimate that I read was that his image is worth 13M pounds annually, or three times his salary. While Real controls his image rights with Adidas, he himself retains control over a number of secondary sponsors. The move to Madrid was estimated to carry significant market potential, which some investment analysts figured would double his net value from 50 to 100 million pounds. Of course after a year gone bad these estimates have been revised, but at the time of the transfer the expectations were high.

It wasn't Niinimaa who made this a media show, far from it. He couldn't play with Summanen as coach and made the only right decision. "undisclosed injury" would have only lead to neverending rumormongering about poor teamspirit which would have eaten the morale of the team. Janne left the team and this allows it to fully concentrate on the remaining games.

It took guts from Janne and after the games are over Summanen will have to explain his actions to Kummola & others.

If the Aamulehti story is true, 3 other finnish players are close to leaving the team as well. Poor game against Germany and this whole thing will explode like a nuclear bomb.

He could have kept his mouth shut, but chose not to. Are you saying that what we have in our hands now won't qualify as "neverending rumormongering"? That we are somehow better off because of Janne coming clean?

Define "close to leaving the team"? Is it akin to being "a bit pregnant"? You are either in or you are out. It is as simple as that, or should be. Besides, this if any is just rumours. Sure there are players who are not satisfied with the way things are going, for instance we have a number of guys who haven't dressed for a single game. So what? Should we reach for the panic button?

Our basic disagreement revolves around the question whether what Janne did was professional, or a "grown man's decision" as someone put it. I don't think so, far from it. The professional choice would have been to keep his mouth shut and wait until the tournament is over. Watch the development of the Brett Hull saga on the other side of the Atlantic and learn.

What did Summanen do that Ninnima got so pissed that he actualy left the tournament?

What did Summanen do that Ninnima got so pissed that he actualy left the tournament?

He came up with a statement how he's leaving because he chose to, not because he was forced out. Asked for a reason, he said he can't tolerate Summanen's behaviour towards the players. He's had enough, he says.

After Sweden game, Summanen was unhappy with team defence and said he would issue a wake-up call to the team. Apparently Janne didn't respond well to his criticism. Summanen is known for his explosive temper.

Originally, Janne wasn't a part of Summanen's selection. He only made the team once it became clear NHL won't allow Karalahti to participate. He wasn't too happy about that.

"undisclosed injury" would have only lead to neverending rumormongering about poor teamspirit which would have eaten the morale of the team.

So, exactly how many eyebrows were raised after Berg went out with a "knee injury" after a series of horrendous errors in Germany game? Only to recover miraculously just in time for the QFs?

He came up with a statement how he's leaving because he chose to, not because he was forced out. Asked for a reason, he said he can't tolerate Summanen's behaviour towards the players. He's had enough, he says.

After Sweden game, Summanen was unhappy with team defence and said he would issue a wake-up call to the team. Apparently Janne didn't respond well to his criticism. Summanen is known for his explosive temper.

Originally, Janne wasn't a part of Summanen's selection. He only made the team once it became clear NHL won't allow Karalahti to participate. He wasn't too happy about that.But why is Ninnima the only one that left if Summanen is that bad?
Now im not defending Summanen or anything just curious.

But why is Ninnima the only one that left if Summanen is that bad?
Now im not defending Summanen or anything just curious.

As said, he only made the team as a backup after Karalahti was forced out. According to others, he even featured in a newspaper interview before the tournament, saying out loud how he wasn't too pleased with it and initally turned down Summanen's offer.

As said, he only made the team as a backup after Karalahti was forced out. According to others, he even featured in a newspaper interview before the tournament, saying out loud how he wasn't too pleased with it and initally turned down Summanen's offer.
Why would they want Karalahti insted of Ninnima?

Why would they want Karalahti insted of Ninnima?
There are few reasons. Mostly because Karalahti is actually a better player than Niinimaa though not very much imo. Karalahti has better shot and plays more physical. Niinimaa is calmer and has better hockey sense in the rink. Karalahti fits better to the agressive style of Summanen. Also Summanen has coached Karalahti before.

Why would they want Karalahti insted of Ninnima?
Man... Karalahti is a one tough defence man. He has a great shot and everything and he would be in the team if the folks in the NHL would have given him the opportunity. I would take them both.

Why would they want Karalahti insted of Ninnima?

Don't ask. I guess they figured Karalahti's got the grit as well as a case to prove with the NHL, while Niinimaa has maybe been so-and-so after a season that saw Oilers trade him to Long Island for nothing much honestly. Emphasize "guess", this is not the gospel or anything.

Why would they want Karalahti insted of Ninnima?

Is is too hard write Niinimaa.How is Insest Leflavalier playing?

Why would they want Karalahti insted of Ninnima?
Niinimaa may be a better player over-all, but Karalahti brings hard hitting and right-handed shot, both of which are needed more than what Niinimaa brings. And he has excellent chemistry with Timonen, who for better or worse is our #1 right now. (Nothing against Kimmo, I just think that ideally he is #2 or #3.)

Is is too hard write Niinimaa.How is Insest Leflavalier playing?
hahah.. yeah...
Ninnima, Niinimma.... or Selane.... Who the hell are those guys anyway??? :)

hahah.. yeah...
Ninnima, Niinimma.... or Selane.... Who the hell are those guys anyway??? :)
Are you people making fun of me?

He could have kept his mouth shut, but chose not to. Are you saying that what we have in our hands now won't qualify as "neverending rumormongering"? That we are somehow better off because of Janne coming clean?

Janne kept his mouth shot, he didn't go to any details, he only said that he has a personal problem with Summanen, nothing else despite lots of pressure from the press to tell the whole story. He said he won't say anything else as long as the tournament was on. To me that's pretty much keeping his mouth shut, it's not like he can simply disappear without saying anything.

Define "close to leaving the team"? Is it akin to being "a bit pregnant"? You are either in or you are out. It is as simple as that, or should be. Besides, this if any is just rumours. Sure there are players who are not satisfied with the way things are going, for instance we have a number of guys who haven't dressed for a single game. So what? Should we reach for the panic button?

They are still on the team but very close to leaving it and that will show in their performance if true. Aamulehti is very close to certain Tampere-region players (Numminen, Nieminen, Lydman) and they are not your usual yellow-press rumormongers unlike papers like Veikkaaja or Urheilulehti. Should be reach for the panic button? Hell no, it's much easier for Kummola to press Summanen's "shut the **** up" -button.

Our basic disagreement revolves around the question whether what Janne did was professional, or a "grown man's decision" as someone put it. I don't think so, far from it. The professional choice would have been to keep his mouth shut and wait until the tournament is over. Watch the development of the Brett Hull saga on the other side of the Atlantic and learn.

He kept his mouth shut! He has not gone in to any details, simply said that personal chemistry didn't work. That's professional enough to me while the same can't be said about Summanen.

Who are you anyway, Raimo's mom?

Are you people making fun of me?

Nahh, where did you get the impression. We have nuthin' but respect for the hockey fans of Kannaduh. :joker:

There are few reasons. Mostly because Karalahti is actually a better player than Niinimaa though not very much imo. Karalahti has better shot and plays more physical. Niinimaa is calmer and has better hockey sense in the rink. Karalahti fits better to the agressive style of Summanen. Also Summanen has coached Karalahti before.

Karalahti better than Niinimaa? LMAO, for the love god give me a break.

Karalahti has a good shot and hits well and that's it. He's not a good skater, he misses his big hits more often than not, he takes stupid penalties, is lost against faster d-men and generally overrated.

Janne kept his mouth shot, he didn't go to any details, he only said that he has a personal problem with Summanen, nothing else despite lots of pressure from the press to tell the whole story. He said he won't say anything else as long as the tournament was on. To me that's pretty much keeping his mouth shut, it's not like he can simply disappear without saying anything.


As said, this is where we disagree. To me reading his exact words in every yellow press tabloid and associated TV channel doesn't qualify as "keeping his mouth shut".


They are still on the team but very close to leaving it and that will show in their performance if true. Aamulehti is very close to certain Tampere-region players (Numminen, Nieminen, Lydman) and they are not your usual yellow-press rumormongers unlike papers like Veikkaaja or Urheilulehti. Should be reach for the panic button? Hell no, it's much easier for Kummola to press Summanen's "shut the **** up" -button.


So when it's Aamulehti printing unsubstantiated rumours, they are of higher value then? So when Tampere-based players give a half-hearted performance for their country, it's OK cause they don't like the coach? Get real. Who are you anyway, the mayor of Tampere? Second coming of Simo Frangen?

In case you haven't noticed, shutting up is exactly what Summanen has done. Which can't be said about Niinimaa.

Karalahti better than Niinimaa? LMAO, for the love god give me a break.

Karalahti has a good shot and hits well and that's it. He's not a good skater, he misses his big hits more often than not, he takes stupid penalties, is lost against faster d-men and generally overrated.

For the love of god Karalahti is a good d-man. If I wold have to pick either Karalahti or Niinimaa, it would be a hard choice.

Karalahti better than Niinimaa? LMAO, for the love god give me a break.
Summanen seems to think that way. When both are in their prime I'd say that Karalahti fits Summanen's playing style better. True, Karalahti has been known to take stupid penalties. Niinimaa has been blaimed of weak performances. They have different qualities where they are better than the other so it's actually hard to say which player is the better one overall. I'd say Karalahti is a bit better player.

Then again, Niinimaa has been a better person off the ice imo and that too affects the team so I can't really say considering off the ice personalities.

As said, this is where we disagree. To me reading his exact words in every yellow press tabloid and associated TV channel doesn't qualify as "keeping his mouth shut".

He said he had a personal problem with Summanen - NOTHING ELSE! He didn't say anything about what Summanen had said/yelled/screamed at him, not a word.

That's the shortest possible comment you can possible give without lying. They had to say SOMETHING.

Besides, it was the PR-release of finnish team which first mentioned the personal problems, not Niinimaa.

So when it's Aamulehti printing unsubstantiated rumours, they are of higher value then? So when Tampere-based players give a half-hearted performance for their country, it's OK cause they don't like the coach? Get real. Who are you anyway, the mayor of Tampere? Second coming of Simo Frangen?

In case you haven't noticed, shutting up is exactly what Summanen has done. Which can't be said about Niinimaa.

Aamulehti has a reputation of being better informed about the inside talk around Team Finland. They have a reputation of not making up stories which Veikkaaja and some other papers do.

And shutting up is exactly NOT what Summanen has done, if he had shut up or atleast remained civil there wouldn't be any problem here.

Niinimaa is easily the better d-man of the two and it's not even close, hell Karalahti is not even the best d-man in his own club team!

And this coming from a HIFK season-ticket holder.

Veikkaaja was good, but worse than Aamulehti.
Then it became IS:Veikkaaja.. and it's become as bad as 7 päivää or The Sun

Rather than compare Niinimaa to Karalahti, I'd compare Niinimaa to Berg. I can see a reason for wanting Jere in the team.. but Aki???
If I was Niinimaa, I'd be peewed that Aki makes any team ahead of me.

Niinimaa is easily the better d-man of the two and it's not even close, hell Karalahti is not even the best d-man in his own club team!

And this coming from a HIFK season-ticket holder.
Right on!

Selänne just said in an interview that the Team Finland stands behind Niinimaa's decision. This might indicate that Summanen is history after this tournament.

[QUOTE=Pepper]Niinimaa is easily the better d-man of the two and it's not even close, hell Karalahti is not even the best d-man in his own club team!

And this coming from a HIFK season-ticket holder.[/QUOTE

"He is not even the best d-man in his own club team" Are you Hannu Aravirta?
I think Summanen knows how good Karalahti is. Then whos the best d-man in HIFK?
Anyway, Niinimaa is a big loss and couldn't be replaced even by Karalahti but Karalahti is not bad d-man. I mean, think about that ****ing Berg?

Are you intentionally trying to be stupid or what? Aamulehti has a reputation of being better informed about the inside talk around Team Finland. They have a reputation of not making up stories which Veikkaaja and some other papers do.


Would you care to elaborate? You are acting as if it's a given fact that Aamulehti wouldn't print a false rumour, or one that they haven't been able to confirm independently. Well excuse me but I find no grounds whatsoever for an assumption such as that. Why should I? Since when has Aamulehti become the official source of truth in the nation? It may be if you are from Tampere and like to view things with a local bias, but don't try pushing it down the throats of others. It's a paper just like every other, written by editors who are human just like the rest of us. With human priorities, sometimes even hidden motives.

Let's review the facts. We have a coach who's led the team to first place in Euro group with no defeats. We are within a cat's whisker of a trip to St. Paul, while either Swedes or Czechs are guaranteed to be home watching the finals in the telly. With the possible exception of SH defence, the team are playing like angels. The country is exstatic.

In the other corner we have a single player sore from the cold shoulder he's received from the coach. He used to have the world at his feet, the young star that he was, but over the past two years he's been in something of a decline. He wasn't a first choice and has been bitter about it ever since. He shows up and performs adequately at best. The coach yells at him for not producing the goods. He tells the coach to shove it and packs his bags. The yellow press starts screaming for crisis. A trigger-happy hockey suit with the sensitivity of a rhinoceros starts dropping ominous hints. Meanwhile, the playoffs are about to get started.

So excuse me if I won't join the bandwagon.

I rate them like this:

Niinimaa > Karalahti > Bruce Driver > 43 year old Dave Babych > Kevin Hatcher after his latest knee injury > > > Aki Berg

EDIT: Personally I think Toni Söderholm is better than Karalahti.

Would you care to elaborate? You are acting as if it's a given fact that Aamulehti wouldn't print a false rumour, or one that they haven't been able to confirm independently.

No, I said that Aamulehti has a good reputation, it doesn't print empty rumors. I never said it's a fact.

Since when has Aamulehti become the official source of truth in the nation? It may be if you are from Tampere and like to view things with a local bias, but don't try pushing it down the throats of others.

I never said Aamulehti is the ultimate or official truth, I said there's a good chance that it is correct however given the good reputation of the paper and the close connections to Tampere-based players.

I have never lived in Tampere, I've lived all my life in Espoo and Helsinki. Get a grip.

Let's review the facts. We have a coach who's led the team to first place in Euro group with no defeats. We are within a cat's whisker of a trip to St. Paul, while either Swedes or Czechs are guaranteed to be home watching the finals in the telly. With the possible exception of SH defence, the team are playing like angels. The country is exstatic.

Yes, let's review the facts. When he didn't have Kipper he was out of the inferior World Championships in quarter-finals, so far the single biggest reason for Team Finland's success is Kipper, not Summanen or his stupid decisions such as playing Berg instead of Väänänen.

So far Summanen has done nothing to impress me.

Did you hear Selänne? "The team stands behind Niinimaa's decision"

Looks like Niinimaa wasn't the only one who's having problems with Summanen, still think that Aamulehti was wrong? Not to mention the fact that sponsors of the national team have demanded Summanen to get fired? When was the last time that happened? Speaks volumes about Summanen's personal skills.

Interviewed by YLE, captain Saku Koivu is annoyed by the fuss caused by Niinimaa's departure and the mulling of the reasons behind it right before a key match.

There's nothing positive in this mess and it is something we would have cared to avoid, he says. What's happened has happened. Myself and the team must focus on the game vs Germany now.

Everything's OK in the team. What happened between Summanen and Niinimaa is their business, Koivu continues.

Working in a team of 30-40 people you can't get along with everyone. Summanen has the support of the entire team, Koivu assures.

In the same interview, coach Summanen says he is disappointed with Janne's decision. His departure was a surprise. A player doesn't play for the coach, but for the team. Apparently the team didn't mean that much to him. At his best he played OK hockey.

The state of the team is reflected by the way it plays. Excluding the Sweden game, the team has played in line with the pre-laid plan. You don't get results like this if all the pieces don't fit together. There is a good fighting atmosphere in the team, Summanen says.

Source:
http://ww2.yle.fi/pls/show/frameUrheilu?id=257064

So there.

I admit to not knowing a lot about Finnish hockey. I appreciate the Finns in the NHL and being a Montreal fan, obviously think the world of Koivu. I say the above because I don't really know the history of some of these people. I'm very surprised by how easy all of you are on Janne Niinimaa. I believe that in a team sport, your first responsibility is to your teammates, and Janne has walked out on his. Would it be unfair for him to carry the label of 'quitter' from now on ? without facts, it is all excuses.

If there's one player who's not a quitter it's Janne.

He left the team because he didn't want to cause any more problems with his personal conflict with Summanen.

Niinimaa placed team above himself, he has always been the ultimate teamplayer who's very down to earth and level-headed.

Selänne's words speak volumes: "the team stands behind Niinimaa's decision"

Koivu's speech was more or less the usual "We trust Summanen blah blah blah", there really was nothing else he could have said as the Captain.

I admit to not knowing a lot about Finnish hockey. I appreciate the Finns in the NHL and being a Montreal fan, obviously think the world of Koivu. I say the above because I don't really know the history of some of these people. I'm very surprised by how easy all of you are on Janne Niinimaa. I believe that in a team sport, your first responsibility is to your teammates, and Janne has walked out on his. Would it be unfair for him to carry the label of 'quitter' from now on ? without facts, it is all excuses.

As said, this is Finland. Myself I can understand the common man siding with Janne, everyone's had a boss they didn't like and who they'd liked to have told to shove it, although of course never dared in his face.

However anyone with a modicum of hockey knowledge should see the team issue first and foremost. There's is absolutely nothing Team Finland could possibly gain from this all as far as World Cup is concerned. The not-so-subtle remarks by Koivu and Summanen tell the whole story.

However anyone with a modicum of hockey knowledge should see the team issue first and foremost. There's is absolutely nothing Team Finland could possibly gain from this all as far as World Cup is concerned. The not-so-subtle remarks by Koivu and Summanen tell the whole story.

If you only knew what the hockey circles are saying about this whole ordeal.

The word is that it was only a matter of time before Summanen went too far, it has never been a question of "if" but a question of "when".

Oh and it was those 'no-so-subtle remarks' by Summanen which started this whole ordeal.

Mcphee, the coach we're talking about has attacked journalists several times, trashed a whole lockerroom after a bad period, assaulted a member of finnish hockey federation, has a reputation of a maniac, was in hot water already before the tournament because of his poor behavior with the sponsors of the national team, has made several players leave his teams earlier (T.Ruutu & J.Hentunen from Jokerit for example).

So if you want to believe the official PR-statement "by" (basicly told what to say) Captain Koivu who really can't say anything else without making the situation 10x worse, feel free to do so. Those who have followed the finnish hockey scene long enough know what's the real story.

Selänne's words speak volumes: "the team stands behind Niinimaa's decision"

Koivu's speech was more or less the usual "We trust Summanen blah blah blah", there really was nothing else he could have said as the Captain.

Considering the timestamp on the YLE piece (3:30 pm) the MTV3 crew must caught Selanne and others off guard early on. It is interesting that MTV3 have withdrawn the comments from their website. At the request of the team? Or have the medias finally seen common sense?

I can understand Teemu feeling sympathy for Janne, he's only recently had his own share of troubles with a hard-nosed old-school coach in Colorado. What is unacceptable is that he went public with his views in the middle of a tournament. He must regret it by now.

As for Koivu, you gotta love the veiled dig. "In a group of 30-40 you can't get along with everyone." Or the one by Summanen himself about "OK hockey". Tough luck for Janne.

Elsewhere, chairman Kummola is finally grasping something resembling common sense. I believe we can find a solution. Too bad that something like this should happen. Let's just take it easy and focus on the tournament, Kummola says at MTV3.

At Channel Four, Kummola goes a step further. We knew that Summanen is a colourful persona, but on top of that he's an excellent coach. Later on he must pay more attention to maintaining mutual trust between the coach and the players, Kummola states.

What does this mean? Well it's not like Summanen facing the sack, if you ask me. Which is good news if any. Common sense will prevail after all.

If you only knew what the hockey circles are saying about this whole ordeal.

The word is that it was only a matter of time before Summanen went too far, it has never been a question of "if" but a question of "when".

Oh and it was those 'no-so-subtle remarks' by Summanen which started this whole ordeal.

Mcphee, the coach we're talking about has attacked journalists several times, trashed a whole lockerroom after a bad period, assaulted a member of finnish hockey federation, has a reputation of a maniac, was in hot water already before the tournament because of his poor behavior with the sponsors of the national team, has made several players leave his teams earlier (T.Ruutu & J.Hentunen from Jokerit for example).

So if you want to believe the official PR-statement "by" (basicly told what to say) Captain Koivu who really can't say anything else without making the situation 10x worse, feel free to do so. Those who have followed the finnish hockey scene long enough know what's the real story. Your coach sounds like a pleasant guy. Still, there have been many cases where a coach 'loses' a team and the players unify and win in spite of him. Niinimaa punished his teammates during a tournament. No matter what is said, I'd have a hard time with that.

[QUOTE=Padawan]Mostly because Karalahti is actually a better player than Niinimaa though not very much imo.QUOTE]

HA!!! LMAO. I would take Niinimaa when he is on his game over any Finnsih Dman except for Pitkanen (but this is based on upside, not current level of play). Yes Niinimaa had an off year by his standards, but calling Karalahti a BETTER PLAYER is laughable.

I'd take Timonen over Niinimaa any given day...in fact, judging only by what I've seen of him in international games during the last couple of years (I don't have much opportunities to watch NHL games), I'd hardly take Niinimaa at all. But still, things like these don't usually much help the team, so it's very hard to find anything positive in this, especially as Pitkänen still doesn't get to play. :dunno:

Mostly because Karalahti is actually a better player than Niinimaa though not very much imo.

HA!!! LMAO. I would take Niinimaa when he is on his game over any Finnsih Dman except for Pitkanen (but this is based on upside, not current level of play). Yes Niinimaa had an off year by his standards, but calling Karalahti a BETTER PLAYER is laughable.
Team Finland head coach seems to think like myself too. I guess you have better hockey sense than he does.

Team Finland head coach seems to think like myself too. I guess you have better hockey sense than he does.

I guess so

Team Finland head coach seems to think like myself too. I guess you have better hockey sense than he does.

The same coach who played Berg instead of Väänänen?? The same coach who considered AJ Niemi as a replacement for Karalahti? The same coach who's currently involved in one of the biggest Team Finland scandals since Alpo Suhonen quit the team?

Yeah right, after all these stunts I don't trust his judgement at all.

Fact's remain: Niinimaa quit on his TEAM-MATES, not on Summanen.

Can any of you see for example Koivu EVER doing something similar at this stage of the tournament?

Niinimaa is forever labeled as a "quitter" in my book. He gave up on his team-mates at a crucial stage of the tournament instead of sucking it up, and giving what his got and keeping his mouth shut.

Janne needs to grow some thicker skin if he wants his career to be turned the other direction again. After wacthing a season of him in the Islanders I sometimes wonder what happened to the play he displayed in Edmonton and Nagano 98'.

Fact's remain: Niinimaa quit on his TEAM-MATES, not on Summanen.

No, you got it exactly wrong.

Niinimaa quit on Summanen, NOT his teammates. Niinimaa is the last person in the team to quit his teammates as his seasons in Oilers proved.

Once again, let me quote Selänne "the team stands behind Janne's decision"

Facts all speak against Summanen on this one.

Sure the facts back him up. He hates the coach so he quit, and in doing so he made the team weaker and left it open for further distraction.
He may have quit on his coach but he let down his teamates who are obviously better teamates than he is by "standing by Janne's decision"

He didn't know Summanen was going to be the coach when he accepted to play??
Niinimaa is a quitter and a baby.

Niinimaa quit on Summanen, NOT his teammates. Niinimaa is the last person in the team to quit his teammates as his seasons in Oilers proved.

Sounds to me like he quit on both.

Niinimaa sucks!! Good riddance he is gone. He always makes awful turnovers, poor decisions .. now we actually might have a chance to win.... and he likes to score alot own goals over the years at international level and NHL

[QUOTE=Padawan]Mostly because Karalahti is actually a better player than Niinimaa though not very much imo.QUOTE]

HA!!! LMAO. I would take Niinimaa when he is on his game over any Finnsih Dman except for Pitkanen (but this is based on upside, not current level of play). Yes Niinimaa had an off year by his standards, but calling Karalahti a BETTER PLAYER is laughable.

Karalahti is 10x better than Niinimaa

Sure the facts back him up. He hates the coach so he quit, and in doing so he made the team weaker and left it open for further distraction.
He may have quit on his coach but he let down his teamates who are obviously better teamates than he is by "standing by Janne's decision"

He didn't know Summanen was going to be the coach when he accepted to play??
Niinimaa is a quitter and a baby.

CBC hockey commentators spoke to the players in the dressing room. The said it became too personal and Summanen crossed the line. They also said that Niinimaa did the right thing.

Yes Niinimaa knew who was coaching and knew Summanen was the reason he wasn't on the team initially which is why he did not accept the invitation immediately.Who wants to play for a coach who doesn't want you there. He was talked into it, perhaps by other members of team Finland. That doesn't mean he expected abuse by the coach-the players saying Summanen "crossed the line" suggests that. It sounded like the player's weren't just being "good teamates" but rather truely believed that Niinimaa did the only thing he could do.

As season ticket holders for the Oilers, I've watched Janne for many years and the LAST thing he is, is a quitter and a baby. I've watched him play games in terrible pain and still give 100% of what he could.He wanted to be on the ice helping his team no matter what and I'm sure it's more so with his own counties team. Perhaps Summanen threatened not to play him at all which makes him leaving the team a moot point. Not playing, yet sitting in the dressing room enraged would have been more detrimental to the team than leaving. It still comes back to Summanen who crossed the line.

I'm sure some of the posters here who are calling Niinimaa a "quitter" have a line that could be crossed. Every person should have this or they're not much of a person.

Summanen was a boarderline mental case as a player and on his first years as coach. I was so shocked when that sociopath got selected to be head coach of team Finland. He has a history of strangling journalists, threatening and insulting finnish hockey association and players...

But he gets the job done!


If he doesnt continue, let it be Rautakorpi who also puts the hate in the opponents and the wins on the table.
:yo:

i've long been a fan of Niinimaa's so this is a bit of a disappointment... the fact that Finland barely won the game v. Germany (a game they should have won handily based upon their prior three efforts) speaks volumes of how this event has affected their dressing room.

i'll have to play devil's advocate on this one, however; i recall an interview that took place the same day/2-day span when Niinimaa first got dealt to NYI and he seemed a bit sour with how Edmonton management handled the transaction, i don't recall the quote verbatim, but something to the effect that he was literally the last one to know about the trade and that NYI wants him and Edmonton obviously didn't.
in hindsight, that was just another Lowe salary dump (and one where he actually netted something substantial in return).

so are we to believe that Niinimaa is just snakebit and the team's coach is unreasonable, or is he a bit of a whiner?

i tend to believe the former because the coach sounds like a psychotic and i have a pretty marginal opinion of Kevin Lowe in a GM chair.

No, you got it exactly wrong.

Niinimaa quit on Summanen, NOT his teammates. Niinimaa is the last person in the team to quit his teammates as his seasons in Oilers proved.

Once again, let me quote Selänne "the team stands behind Janne's decision"

Facts all speak against Summanen on this one.

We are not exactly making progress here as everyone's firmly behind their own opinions, but let me try and rephrase one more time. Yes, Niinimaa may have initially wanted to quit on Summanen, but the end result was that he hurt the team badly. No show of sympathy or camaraderie from Selanne or others could change that. Notice by the way that there's a marked difference between standing behind Janne, and walking out together with him.

Let's see where we're at. Just as the going is getting tough, we have a full-blown media frenzy underway. Yellow press is screaming crisis. The team is clearly shaken, so much was evident last night. There's talk of sacking the coach who may be on the verge of leading the team all the way to final and beyond. Players and federation chairman are caught in a web of misquoted statements blown out of all proportions.

All this comes down to a bad call by a single player. No matter who came out with the first PR release, no matter if coach Summanen is a certified case who feeds on the blood of unborn babies, no matter if there are other players who are not 100% satisfied with their role in the team or the way things are going. If Janne hadn't taken the step and crossed the line, we wouldn't be here. The conflicts may have been inevitable, but turning them into public spectacle and distraction certainly wasn't.

What some people, and Janne in particular, fail to grasp is that this is not some boys club, or another day at the office, or a holiday in the sun, or a chance of personal gratification. This is war, plain and simple. The last one standing wins it all for his team. There's no room for second thoughts or individual egos in the heat of the battle. If you don't see that, you shouldn't be in the team.

Yes, there are unpleasant people out there, some in high positions. Yes, there are moments when emotions run too high, when people say things that shouldn't have been said. Yes, it happens that you don't get the credit that you deserve, or vice versa you get to take the rap for something that wasn't entirely up to you. Such is life. You get over it and focus on what matters. If you are a professional, that is.

If Janne is half the man we make him out to be, he would come out one more time and do his share of damage control. He would say he's sorry for all the fuss (mind you, nobody's saying he should apologize for the real issues that remain hidden for the moment), and that he's rooting for the boys and coach Summanen to go all the way. He could even say he's thankful for the support he's got, but it's time to put all that behind and focus on the task at hand. That would show character.

There are some real ugly details behind all this which will be revealed after the tournament, hockey insiders know these details but don't dare to come public because Kummola has made it clear that the one who leaks it before tournament ends will no longer have anything to do in finnish hockey circles (and unfortunately he has the power to do that).

I've spoken with a brother of Team Finland player yesterday and the rumors of lockerroom chaos are true, there were some really heated arguments between several players and coach Summanen with players really giving it to Summanen for driving Niinimaa away with some really ugly personal remarks which had absolutely nothing to do with Janne's performance, mistakes or hockey in general. Only the diplomacy of Jari Kurri has held the team together, for now atleast.

Some of you Summanen-fanboys will probably have to find a new idol after all this comes out in public.

The real Selanne quote follows (source: http://www.mtv3.fi):

I do understand Janne's situation, the team stands behind his decision. This has not been easy, but the situation was just so to that the relationship between Janne and the coach wasn't what it could have been.

Myself I can say that if I hadn't been on a salary last season [at Avalanche], I would have walked. This is how it goes; just as in any job, sometimes you get problems with personal chemistry.

Saku Koivu continues:

(MTV3) If one or two players and the coaching team end up like this, that doesn't mean that everybody else would feel the same. The players still give their full support to the coaching team and stand behind them. What happens after the tournament, that is difficult for me to comment on. Thankfully that is not the players' job.

Miikka Kiprusoff:

(MTV3) We didn't expect any distracting factors [in the game]. We are professionals.

Olli Jokinen:

(MTV3) I have worked with all kinds of coaches. I get along with everyone. I have worked under Mike Keenan as well. Without Kipper we could have been in trouble. We are after success here for sure.

Federation chairman Kummola:

(MTV3) Summanen has our full confidence at this moment. We are in this together now. When we hired Summanen, we knew that at times he would go too far. But he's an extremely good, fired-up coach who puts himself on the line - and because of that sometimes the fuse will burn.

I don't want to discuss this mess any further. We have surely had enough of that. We are not going to discuss this in media's terms. The play has become quite rough. Usually there's always one sensationalist paper writing trash while the tournament is under way, trying to create confusion. This is not patriotic, that's for sure.

Coach Summanen:

(MTV3) Something like this goes to prove that this is big thing for everyone, for players and trainers. This is an extreme sport, we are all running at the limit. It goes to show who's got what it takes. Some fall through as time goes by.

(YLE) It was close that Niinimaa would have ended in the stands as early as during the trip to Cologne. What matters the most is that everyone plays for the team. It is not my habit to issue free passes to anyone. It is my time to come out into the public once this tournament is over. I will be glad to talk things over.

And finally, Janne Niinimaa:

(MTV3) Janne doesn't yet want to go into details in public, but emphasizes he can take even hard criticism.

(Iltalehti) Meeting a journalist over a pint of beer in a Helsinki pub, Janne states he has no regrets. I still believe I made the right choice.

For now I don't want to talk any more about this. We should let the boys to do the job. I really hope the team will be succesful.

There are some real ugly details behind all this which will be revealed after the tournament, hockey insiders know these details but don't dare to come public because Kummola has made it clear that the one who leaks it before tournament ends will no longer have anything to do in finnish hockey circles (and unfortunately he has the power to do that).

I've spoken with a brother of Team Finland player yesterday and the rumors of lockerroom chaos are true, there were some really heated arguments between several players and coach Summanen with players really giving it to Summanen for driving Niinimaa away with some really ugly personal remarks which had absolutely nothing to do with Janne's performance, mistakes or hockey in general. Only the diplomacy of Jari Kurri has held the team together, for now atleast.

Some of you Summanen-fanboys will probably have to find a new idol after all this comes out in public.

Well, it's sure fun to drop ominous hints and rely on anonymous sources in impressively high places, but as long as you don't have anything concrete to say, you are not really contributing. You can't take anonymous rumours and call them uncontested facts.

And where exactly are these "fanboys"? Myself I have been arguing with you that Janne didn't exactly act too clever and in the best interests of the team, end of story. Also, I have tried to point out that we have a tournament under way, which should take precedence here. Nowhere in my posts will you find anything suggesting that Summanen is right in everything he does, far from it. But as it is, he happens to be the head coach of the team we all support to the end, I hope.

Edit: rounded off some of the rough edges, no use heating up any more controversy

Well, it's sure fun to drop ominous hints and rely on anonymous sources in impressively high places, but as long as you don't have anything concrete to say, you are not really contributing. You can't take anonymous rumours and call them uncontested facts.

Like I said the details will come out eventually, right now everybody is keeping their mouths shut but I expect the truth will come out eventually, probably within 1-2 weeks after the games. And they are not anonymous rumors to me, it's direct quotes & information from sources extremely close to the team. Like I said, Summanen went grossly out of line with his very personal comments which had nothing to do with hockey and it would have been fine had it been an isolated incident but the same stuff has been happening since WCh 2003 so I guess this was the straw that broke camel's back.

You seem to like give the impression that you're well informed and have access to information beyond headlines & public rumors, why don't you go ask your sources what the deal is?

And where exactly are these "fanboys"? Myself I have been arguing with you that Janne didn't exactly act too clever and in the best interests of the team, end of story. Also, I have tried to point out that we have a tournament under way, which should take precedence here.

Janne couldn't work with Summanen - had he stayed the argument with Summanen would have poisoned the whole lockerroom. Janne is the first to answer the call to play for Team Suomi and walking away from the national team was probably extreme hard decision for him but he did because he didn't want to compromise the team with his personal problems with Summanen.

But don't worry, the truth will come out eventually and you will most likely change your tune too.

You seem to like give the impression that you're well informed and have access to information beyond headlines & public rumors, why don't you go ask your sources what the deal is?


On the contrary, I am relying solely on public news sources. I have been around and like to connect the dots myself to come up with conclusions of my own, but I try to tread safely so as not to reach into anything unreasonable. Sometimes more successfully than others. ;)


Janne couldn't work with Summanen - had he stayed the argument with Summanen would have poisoned the whole lockerroom.


This is getting back to the keep the mouth shut -argument, but Janne did have several alternatives. He could have bitten his lip, taken the abuse no matter how unreasonable it may have been, and settled for a place at the end of the bench. Happens in NHL all the time. After the tournament he would have had plenty of opportunities to bring up his side of the story. Or if it got really, really, really bad, he could have told Summanen in private to leave him out of the playing 20 and watched the rest of the tournament from the stands. It happens, someone's got to sit and he was the backup to begin with, so no big deal.

Instead he chose to make a scene and distance himself publicly from Summanen and the team, which directly led to the media circus we're in now and put the rest of the players in an immensely difficult spot under the spotlight. You may call it honest, I call it destructive. It very nearly cost us a place in the semis, and it remains to be seen how it affects the team later on. If Janne didn't see the storm coming as a direct consequence of his choice, he was stupid at worst and naive at best. Yes, Summanen was at fault too but you can't change the coach halfway through a tournament. If something's got to give, it's the player.

Honestly, I am really looking forward to hearing what these "really ugly details" are. Sure I can understand that a person of Summanen's temper and demeanor can really get under your skin with some serious abuse, but still. We are talking World Cup of Hockey here, the best of the best assembling, playoffs about to get started, a crucial moment if anything, the entire country holding its breath. It had really better be something special, something worthy of a book deal and a defamation lawsuit that shadows the STT case a few years back. "My d*** is bigger than yours" just won't do.

What also bugs me is how most everybody in Finland seems to think Janne is some kind of an angel. First of all, he was discontent from day one and even came out saying it out loud right before the tournament (in Kaleva newspaper, they say). Great timing, great attitude. Then there's his behaviour that sparked this mess, as I have painstakingly tried to point out.

Now he's meeting with reporters in pubs just off chance, making it very clear he's got no regrets and positively made the right choice, but of course he doesn't want to stir the pot and talk about this now. Well Einstein, you just did. The same with MTV3, yes I sure can take all the criticism in the world but no, of course I don't want talk about this but will allow the guys to focus on the game. All I can say is, just cause he's been a great guy before doesn't mean he's incapable of making a mistake now.

I have never been a Kummola fan (who has?) but I will raise my hat to him for his remarks in this morning's Helsingin Sanomat newspaper, where he made it clear what's most annoying is that something like this should come up smack in the middle of the tournament, and that the media would have such a field day with it. Yes he made it clear Summanen's not the easiest fellow to hang around with, however he also stated quite rightly that Janne's behaviour is unacceptable, how blame goes both ways.

Edit: a couple of typos

Well by your admission who have no clue what's the word inside the hockey circles.

Trust me, you wouldn't be defending Summanen if you had heard the same things as I have.

Kummola is in full damage control -mode, there's no way he could have said anything else no matter what he thought of the situation. Same with Koivu, they simply had to say Summanen has full support, anything else and Team Finland could have stayed in Europe and give USA/Rus a freeride to finals.

But we should simply wait and see.

Well by your admission who have no clue what's the word inside the hockey circles.

Trust me, you wouldn't be defending Summanen if you had heard the same things as I have.


Trust me, if you say "hockey circles" one more time I will scream... I don't know what kind of kicks you are getting from your supposed access to the holiest of the holy, but it sure ain't impressing anyone.

I don't know if I should draw a picture or something, I have gone through this so many times. I am not on a mission to defend Summanen. I just want to see Team Finland do well. What I have seen from Niinimaa so far hasn't helped that cause one bit, and I am not afraid to say it out loud. The same goes for your so-called "evidence". It sure won't help the team in the semis. Just about as interesting as watching paint dry.

If all we're after is hindsight and "told you so" then sure, heck yeah let's savor the moment. The open season is just about to begin, and it's never too early to start with the gloom and doom. In no time the World Cup will be over, Finland will have met its just fate considering the disastrous no-good excuse of a coach we've been cursed with, and we'll all be dancing around the bonfire while Prince of Evil aka Summanen is burning.

Call me old-fashioned but I am more interested in hockey though.

Trust me, you wouldn't be defending Summanen if you had heard the same things as I have.


This is getting interesting. I would like to hear what you've heard. Why not to tell the whole story now that you've started.

Yeah lets hear it. I want to know what "hockey circles" are saying happened.

Trust me, if you say "hockey circles" one more time I will scream... I don't know what kind of kicks you are getting from your supposed access to the holiest of the holy, but it sure ain't impressing anyone.

I don't know if I should draw a picture or something, I have gone through this so many times. I am not on a mission to defend Summanen. I just want to see Team Finland do well. What I have seen from Niinimaa so far hasn't helped that cause one bit, and I am not afraid to say it out loud. The same goes for your so-called "evidence". It sure won't help the team in the semis. Just about as interesting as watching paint dry.

If all we're after is hindsight and "told you so" then sure, heck yeah let's savor the moment. The open season is just about to begin, and it's never too early to start with the gloom and doom. In no time the World Cup will be over, Finland will have met its just fate considering the disastrous no-good excuse of a coach we've been cursed with, and we'll all be dancing around the bonfire while Prince of Evil aka Summanen is burning.

Call me old-fashioned but I am more interested in hockey though.


If Summanen resorts to personal attacks on Niinimaa, he has not helped the team either. Let's now wait until the tournament is over and see what is this all about. Anyway, i don't believe Niinimaa walks out without reason. Summanen crossed the line and what the line is remains to be seen.

Niinimaa wasn't the only Finnish player thinking about leaving.


http://www.wch04.com/countries/fin/notebook090604.html

Twenty hours later, defenseman Janne Niinimaa had left the team, citing "chemistry problems" with the coach as the reason and 15 hours from that, the rumour around the press center was Summanen might not even show up behind the bench and that there was a revolt in the making on the Finnish team, with several players ready to call it quits.

Niinimaa wasn't the only Finnish player thinking about leaving.


I reckon they are referring to the rumour that Aamulehti newspaper started. I haven't read it but some (Pepper?) say the three were named as well, this being Numminen, Nieminen and Lydman. But it is obviously not based on any player quotes.

The last time Numminen spoke up, he was calling the whole affair regrettable. He did say the team was behind Summanen and Niinimaa both, whatever that may amount to. It's a sweet mess all right. I wish nothing but that they could put the thing behind them, but honestly I am not sure if they can.

If Summanen resorts to personal attacks on Niinimaa, he has not helped the team either. Let's now wait until the tournament is over and see what is this all about. Anyway, i don't believe Niinimaa walks out without reason. Summanen crossed the line and what the line is remains to be seen.

Yes, but as I pointed out before, if you have a conflict between the coach and the player, it has to be the player who gives in. There's no other alternative halfway through a major tournament. It's a different story any other time of the year, then we can all sit down and discuss the situation, but not now.

Nobody's saying Summanen doesn't share some of the blame. Everyone agrees he's got a flaring temper and people skills that can be described as lacking to say the least. What's being said (well, I am saying anyway) is that Janne's personal decision and its timing were the worst you can imagine.

No matter how personal Summanen has got, no matter what insults or profanities he's come up with, Janne should have bitten the bullet, if only for the good of the team, and showed reserve. Be a bigger man than Summanen, in a word. He didn't, and the resulting mess exploded on everyone's face. That's the problem I myself am having a hard time with.

Right now I couldn't care less what happens after the tournament. The people can crucify Summanen for his sins, I don't care. What I would like to have seen is the team acting as one, for one common goal as long as we are in the tournament. Well they didn't, and it's p******* me off. Sure you can say they're only human, but that doesn't stop me from expecting more from them.

I reckon they are referring to the rumour that Aamulehti newspaper started. I haven't read it but some (Pepper?) say the three were named as well, this being Numminen, Nieminen and Lydman. But it is obviously not based on any player quotes.

I really have to ask you to

1) start reading my posts

and

2) stop putting words to my mouth.

I did NOT name any of the other players who were close to quit the team too, I said that Aamulehti has very good connections to several Tampere-based players which are those you mentioned.

And the players won't come public with the real story until the tournament is over, I thought that much is obvious to everyone. That's why Janne is not commenting the issue in any way other than saying the exact same thing as the official press-release by finnish team.

Selänne is the only one who has voiced something even remotely close to a real opinion (instead of the normal PR-cliches) and it pretty much speaks volumes about the situation.

And I won't go in to details about the things Summanen spewed at several players, especially at Niinimaa, out of respect to my sources who want to keep details out of public until the games are over, they agreed that in a players-only meeting late on sunday evening. And if you think that source is some fringe player who gets little/no icetime, well think again, it's one of the cornerstones of that team.

Let's just say that physical confortation wasn't far and Kurri was the person who managed to solve the situation, the rest will come out later.

And no, I'm not gonna be here with a "I told you so" -attitude, this whole affair is way too depressing for that.

I reckon they are referring to the rumour that Aamulehti newspaper started. I haven't read it but some (Pepper?) say the three were named as well, this being Numminen, Nieminen and Lydman. But it is obviously not based on any player quotes.

The last time Numminen spoke up, he was calling the whole affair regrettable. He did say the team was behind Summanen and Niinimaa both, whatever that may amount to. It's a sweet mess all right. I wish nothing but that they could put the thing behind them, but honestly I am not sure if they can.


it seems simple enough for the media to ask the players,after the tournament ends,if they considered leaving in the middle of the tournament?Were there discussions among some players about just walking out?

The players will either deny it or confirm it.

I really have to ask you to

1) start reading my posts

and

2) stop putting words to my mouth.

I did NOT name any of the other players who were close to quit the team too, I said that Aamulehti has very good connections to several Tampere-based players which are those you mentioned.

Oh boy, here we go again. OK, here are the exact quotes from Pepper:

"If the Aamulehti story is true, 3 other finnish players are close to leaving the team as well. Poor game against Germany and this whole thing will explode like a nuclear bomb."

And in the next post:

"They are still on the team but very close to leaving it and that will show in their performance if true. Aamulehti is very close to certain Tampere-region players (Numminen, Nieminen, Lydman) and they are not your usual yellow-press rumormongers unlike papers like Veikkaaja or Urheilulehti."

Notice the symmetry: three and three. If that was unintentional, here's a simple rule for the future. If you don't know any names, don't name any names. You don't get any words in your mouth. We'll all be spared from lots of trouble.

I have read your posts all right. Here's a quick summary. Summanen's an evil psychopath. Nobody else has a clue cause only you have friends in hockey circles. Broman is stupid for disagreeing. Everyone close to the team is lying through their teeth to disguise their unrelenting hatred towards Summanen. Niinimaa is clean of all guilt cause he was such a decent guy at Oilers. Let's just wait and see.

Yes I have read them, and I can't say like I gained anything much. What more can I do?

The last time Numminen spoke up, he was calling the whole affair regrettable. He did say the team was behind Summanen and Niinimaa both, whatever that may amount to. It's a sweet mess all right. I wish nothing but that they could put the thing behind them, but honestly I am not sure if they can.


Here are some quotes from an article written by one of the main Canadian reporters covering the World Cup in Helsinki.

Allen Panzeri
The Ottawa Citizen


Tuesday, September 07,



HELSINKI, Finland - It was, and remains, an ugly, utterly untimely, and shocking crisis, one that ultimately pits the players against the coach.

"We were supposed to talk about hockey, but we ended up talking about other things," said Teemu Selanne.

"It wasn't a good situation. This was ugly. What happened with Janne was sad. It wasn't easy to come and play with so many other things to think about."

Defenceman Kimmo Timonen said the players tried hard to turn their attention back to hockey.

"We decided that this is a lifetime chance for Finnish hockey," he said. "What happened with Janne is too bad, but it's none of our business. It's between him and the coach.

"We kind of decided that nobody would say anything until the tournament is over. Then they can say whatever they want. We have a chance to do something special, so we decided to focus on that."

But the players were also clear in their support of Niinimaa, Summanen's favourite whipping boy.

"You're always surprised when something like that happens, but everyone knows what the situation on the team is," said defenceman Teppo Numminen.

"Everyone supports Janne and he is still a member of our team, and I think everyone was really professional in preparing for the game, but it wasn't easy."

Both Selanne and Numminen seem to suggest the situation was more than just a simple personality conflict. If that was the case, Niinimaa's leaving was the best choice for the team.

It's just getting worse and worse with every passing day. Now the yellow press are enjoying the latest turn of events. The source is Ilta-Sanomat.

Fresh out of Team Finland duties, Janne Niinimaa arranged a rowdy party at his penthouse flat in Helsinki city centre on Monday night after the Germany game. The neighbours were not amused. Of Team Finland cornerstone players, at least Miikka Kiprusoff showed up for the good time. The party went on until the morning hours. The team was scheduled to take the flight to North America before noon on Tuesday.

Honestly, I am not sure what to make of this. It seems like the two sides of this clash are preparing for the ultimate confrontation after the tournament is over, and making the most of their press connections while at it. Interestingly, the MTV3/Iltalehti/Aamulehti media group looks strongly pro-Niinimaa, while the dominant Sanoma group is showing signs of support for Summanen. I think there's going to be plenty of mud-slinging before we are through with this.

It's just getting worse and worse with every passing day. Now the yellow press are enjoying the latest turn of events. The source is Ilta-Sanomat.

Fresh out of Team Finland duties, Janne Niinimaa arranged a rowdy party at his penthouse flat in Helsinki city centre on Monday night after the Germany game. The neighbours were not amused. Of Team Finland cornerstone players, at least Miikka Kiprusoff showed up for the good time. The party went on until the morning hours. The team was scheduled to take the flight to North America before noon on Tuesday.

Honestly, I am not sure what to make of this. It seems like the two sides of this clash are preparing for the ultimate confrontation after the tournament is over, and making the most of their press connections while at it. Interestingly, the MTV3/Iltalehti/Aamulehti media group looks strongly pro-Niinimaa, while the dominant Sanoma group is showing signs of support for Summanen. I think there's going to be plenty of mud-slinging before we are through with this.
It will all sell some newspapers if nothing else.

Both Selanne and Numminen seem to suggest the situation was more than just a simple personality conflict. If that was the case, Niinimaa's leaving was the best choice for the team.

Just to clarify one more time, myself I have no problem with Janne dropping out of the team. If he just couldn't get along with Summanen, if he felt he couldn't give his 100% to the team, then that was the right call, absolutely. My problem is with the way he did it, going public and distancing himself from the team. Instead of swallowing his pride for a moment, at least until the tournament would have been over.

I would have dealt with it as a team issue that wouldn't have left the team. Just as Koivu and others are saying now, except that now it's too late for that. Janne could have sat out the rest of tournament at the end of the bench, or even in his civvies as the #8 defenceman. Nobody would have made a fuss as he was the backup to begin with. He didn't, and this is where it landed us. Nothing that may come up after the tournament is going to change that.

I repeat, the turning point was whether Janne could be a bigger man than Summanen (if the accusations turn out be true). He couldn't, and it turned into a messy playground fight. Contrary to what some people seem to think, giving up and making a scene wasn't the gutsy move. A real show of character would have been to take the heat and turn the other cheek. If only for the good of the team, and for the duration of the tournament.

A Canadian take on the situation by columnist Bob McKenzie at TSN. Emphasis is mine:

Finland came away with a tough 2-1 win against Germany on Monday, but another dramatic story that came out of the World Cup was Finnish defenceman Janne Niinimaa walking out on his team citing a 'coaching conflict' with bench boss Raimo Summanen.

Now most of us remember Summanen as the former Edmonton Oiler who played with a quiet, workman-like demeanour. But as a head coach in the Finnish Elite League and Finland's national team, he's become a version of Scotty Bowman, Mike Keenan and Glen Sather. He brings with him that in-your-face, hard and demanding style.

That being said, he hasn't gotten along with Niinimaa. When the Finnish team was being selected, Summanen wanted blueliner Jere Karalahti and Niinimaa was left off the initial roster.

The National Hockey League then ruled that because he was a suspended player, Karalahti was out. Niinimaa was chosen and went into it with reservations, but no matter what you do (and any Canadian hockey fan will tell you this), you don't walk out and quit on your team - your national team - in the middle of any international event. It's something that you will never really recover from.

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp?id=97831

Posters at jatkoaika.com, a Finnish hockey BBS, are claiming Team Finland players were spotted in a downtown restaurant on Saturday night as well, after they successfully held Sweden to a tie. The first players are said to have shown up as early as one hour after the game.

Now this is unconfirmed rumours if any, but if (a big if) there's a hint of truth in that, it might explain some of coach Summanen's "feedback". Not that it would justify going to extremes, but it's something to consider.

It was just four years ago under former head coach Aravirta that three Team Finland players went out on a drinking binge at Worlds in St. Petersburg. The team went on to crash out against Slovakia, who met the Czechs in the finals.

Edit: as early as

Posters at jatkoaika.com, a Finnish hockey BBS, are claiming Team Finland players were spotted in a downtown restaurant on Saturday night as well, after they successfully held Sweden to a tie. The first players are said to have shown up as early as one hour after the game.

Now this is unconfirmed rumours if any, but if (a big if) there's a hint of truth in that, it might explain some of coach Summanen's "feedback". Not that it would justify going to extremes, but it's something to consider.

It was just four years ago under former head coach Aravirta that three Team Finland players went out on a drinking binge at Worlds in St. Petersburg. The team went on to crash out against Slovakia, who met the Czechs in the finals.

Edit: as early as

They showed up at the restaurant after the game correct?
Did they blow off a postgame team meeting or postgame press interviews?
Is there a team curfew they ignored?

Oh boy, here we go again. OK, here are the exact quotes from Pepper:

"If the Aamulehti story is true, 3 other finnish players are close to leaving the team as well. Poor game against Germany and this whole thing will explode like a nuclear bomb."

And in the next post:

"They are still on the team but very close to leaving it and that will show in their performance if true. Aamulehti is very close to certain Tampere-region players (Numminen, Nieminen, Lydman) and they are not your usual yellow-press rumormongers unlike papers like Veikkaaja or Urheilulehti."

Notice the symmetry: three and three. If that was unintentional, here's a simple rule for the future. If you don't know any names, don't name any names. You don't get any words in your mouth. We'll all be spared from lots of trouble.

Whoa, maybe you should stop making hasty conclusions without actually thinking it through first? I think it was pretty obvious that Aamulehti is close to those players mentioned who are THE SOURCES, not the players who were ready to quit. Aamulehti is a tampere-based newspaper with close ties to tampere-based players and I just listed those players in parenthesis.

You should have stopped there for a second and wondered why only the tampere-based players are close to leaving the team but I guess the thought didn't cross your mind.

And I really suggest you tune down your aggressiviness here, it's starting to get slightly irritating to read your posts.

It's just getting worse and worse with every passing day. Now the yellow press are enjoying the latest turn of events. The source is Ilta-Sanomat.

Fresh out of Team Finland duties, Janne Niinimaa arranged a rowdy party at his penthouse flat in Helsinki city centre on Monday night after the Germany game. The neighbours were not amused. Of Team Finland cornerstone players, at least Miikka Kiprusoff showed up for the good time. The party went on until the morning hours. The team was scheduled to take the flight to North America before noon on Tuesday.

Honestly, I am not sure what to make of this. It seems like the two sides of this clash are preparing for the ultimate confrontation after the tournament is over, and making the most of their press connections while at it. Interestingly, the MTV3/Iltalehti/Aamulehti media group looks strongly pro-Niinimaa, while the dominant Sanoma group is showing signs of support for Summanen. I think there's going to be plenty of mud-slinging before we are through with this.

You really love controversies don't you? Both Ilta-Sanomat and Iltalehti have said the same thing from the start because they have access to inside information, they know what kind of person Summanen is better than most (well atleast better than you as you have admitted you rely on public material here). Btw, I really how you seem to imply that Niinimaa or 'his side' called the reporters to cover the party they were holding on sunday :joker:

The media supports Niinimaa, the players support Niinimaa, large majority of finnish hockey fans support Niinimaa (based on opinions represented at several hockey forums) and the 'hockey people' support Niinimaa.

The only friend Summanen has is Kummola and even he is forced to play a role because the tournament isn't over yet.

Btw, notice how Niinimaa has pretty much remained silent whereas Summanen himself has made several comments in the public about Janne since the incident? Great way to improve the already great team spirit shown in the game against Germany :shakehead

because they have access to inside information, they know what kind of person Summanen is better than most

The media supports Niinimaa, the players support Niinimaa, large majority of finnish hockey fans support Niinimaa (based on opinions represented at several hockey forums) and the 'hockey people' support Niinimaa.

The only friend Summanen has is Kummola and even he is forced to play a role because the tournament isn't over yet.



That may be so and I personally also am in "side of Niinimaa", but only in sense that whatever the Summanen did will be handled after the tournament. If Summanen is not good with people or press, I dont care at this point. After the tournament it is different thing alltogether, but for now it doesn't matter.

This whole thing is pointless now to be handled, because it doesn't make our team better. I have to agree to that point that Niinimaa should have kept his mouth shut and should have asked to be scratched. This whole fuss could have been handled after the tournament.

They showed up at the restaurant after the game correct?
Did they blow off a postgame team meeting or postgame press interviews?
Is there a team curfew they ignored?

I think ordinarily you would expect that athletes are busy with post-game cooldown at that hour. The last I heard, the recommendation was that you do long stretches 1,5-2 hours after exercise. Put this together with the lackluster performance v Germany and you get the idea. But it could have been the guys who weren't dressing for the game, I wouldn't know.

Edit: Or maybe they did their stretching in the bar. :D

Whoa, maybe you should stop making hasty conclusions without actually thinking it through first? I think it was pretty obvious that Aamulehti is close to those players mentioned who are THE SOURCES, not the players who were ready to quit. Aamulehti is a tampere-based newspaper with close ties to tampere-based players and I just listed those players in parenthesis.

You should have stopped there for a second and wondered why only the tampere-based players are close to leaving the team but I guess the thought didn't cross your mind.

And I really suggest you tune down your aggressiviness here, it's starting to get slightly irritating to read your posts.

I honestly don't get what's so "pretty obvious" in what you're saying. Also I don't get it why a player like Numminen would go blabbering to journalists about a teammate having a grudge. Quite the opposite, I would think he considers it the teammate's business. These are grown-up professionals were talking about. Every man talks for himself.

Why wouldn't it be an isolated clique within the team, perhaps childhood friends, that's so desperate that they are considering leaving (an extreme act if any)? If you ask me, that's exactly what I would expect.

So now you're calling me aggressive? After first questioning my intelligence, calling me Summanen's mom and whatnot, screaming in CAPITALS, all just because I am not agreeing with you and in awe of your superior knowledge and inside connections? Whew.

You really love controversies don't you? Both Ilta-Sanomat and Iltalehti have said the same thing from the start because they have access to inside information, they know what kind of person Summanen is better than most (well atleast better than you as you have admitted you rely on public material here). Btw, I really how you seem to imply that Niinimaa or 'his side' called the reporters to cover the party they were holding on sunday


And your conclusion is? Sure I don't expect Janne would have wanted the reporters crashing the party. Yet Ilta-Sanomat chose to make it frontpage news. I don't get it where you get the "imply" bit.

However competing Iltalehti tabloid that's been rabidly anti-Summanen from day one happened to be around when he was having a beer the day before. No, I don't think that was a coincidence.

If you study the coverage of Ilta-Sanomat, Helsingin Sanomat and Channel Four of Sanoma group closely, you will find how they have focused on the state of the team and the damage that's been done. Explicit calls for Summanen's head have come from Iltalehti camp and (more moderately) MTV3. Not to mention your beloved Aamulehti who obviously have an agenda of their own.

Have you noticed how voices of reason have started to surface after the initial storm? Check out the interviews with former players Mika Kortelainen and Mika Nieminen, in Iltalehti and MTV3 respectively. Both long-time veterans, both with recent first-hand experience of Summanen as a coach. Yes, they agree he can blow his lid big time, even go into personal issues. But no, it wasn't anything they couldn't have overcome, or anything much out of the ordinary really. The man was regarded a passionate, successful coach. Nieminen even goes to say he was in his best fit ever under Summanen.

Oh BTW, I gotta love your subtle attempts of showing off your own superiority. "Admitted you rely on public material?!" Excellent stuff. We salute you. :bow: :joker:

I honestly don't get what's so "pretty obvious" in what you're saying. Also I don't get it why a player like Numminen would go blabbering to journalists about a teammate having a grudge. Quite the opposite, I would think he considers it the teammate's business. These are grown-up professionals were talking about. Every man talks for himself.

You really don't understand the relationship between long-time hockey journalists and players. You make assumptions, conclusions and opinions, you simply lack the factual knowledge.

Why wouldn't it be an isolated clique within the team, perhaps childhood friends, that's so desperate that they are considering leaving (an extreme act if any)? If you ask me, that's exactly what I would expect.


So you think Numminen, Lydman and Nieminen are childhood friends? oookay...

You really don't understand the relationship between long-time hockey journalists and players. You make assumptions, conclusions and opinions, you simply lack the factual knowledge.


Whereas you yourself are busy enlightening our lives with "factual knowledge", as opposed to rumours, hints and allegations.


So you think Numminen, Lydman and Nieminen are childhood friends? oookay...

Bad choice of words. Should have said: perhaps players from the same town. But you get the idea, it's just that you choose to ignore it.

And your conclusion is? Sure I don't expect Janne would have wanted the reporters crashing the party. Yet Ilta-Sanomat chose to make it frontpage news. I don't get it where you get the "imply" bit.

Yes, why did Ilta-Sanomat make it a frontpage news? Because they are pro-Summanen?

However competing Iltalehti tabloid that's been rabidly anti-Summanen from day one happened to be around when he was having a beer the day before. No, I don't think that was a coincidence.

Are you sure the journalist was there in person or simply talked with him on the phone? Oh and if they were pro-Niinimaa they probably wouldn't want to spread that 'having a beer' -bit too much, people draw wrong conclusions so easily.

If you study the coverage of Ilta-Sanomat, Helsingin Sanomat and Channel Four of Sanoma group closely, you will find how they have focused on the state of the team and the damage that's been done. Explicit calls for Summanen's head have come from Iltalehti camp and (more moderately) MTV3. Not to mention your beloved Aamulehti who obviously have an agenda of their own.


This is too rich, you mean Aamulehti is anti-Summanen because they dared to publish reports about widespread problems in the lockerroom?? Oh boy...

Oh BTW, I gotta love your subtle attempts of showing off your own superiority. "Admitted you rely on public material?!" Excellent stuff. We salute you. :bow: :joker:

Actually I was kinda making fun of your fanatical attempts to defend Summanen despite not having any idea what happened in the lockerroom. I don't need to 'show off my superiority' here in anyway. I just happen to be more informed about these things because of various reasons (my own hockey career, current job, colleagues, friends etc).

But hey, feel free to continue making conculsions based on official PR-releases.

I'm not gonna continue this debate any further, I'll let you have the last word.

I'm not gonna continue this debate any further, I'll let you have the last word.

That's mighty big of you, I will happily snatch the opportunity. :D

Honestly it hasn't been much of a debate anyway. If you ever find the time and interest to review your own contributions again you'll notice how you've hardly touched any of the real questions or suggestions that I have posted, just the points and commas (see our latest exchange for a prime sample). Still, what do you expect from a BBS?

On behalf of us both I would like to apologize to any third parties for the drowsiness that leafing through this rant may have caused. Pepper, see you again in more conciliatory terms, perhaps when we are analyzing Finland's WCH championship run together... You can bring your inside sources, I will bring my newspaper clippings. :yo:

Sorry, I have to post this one more "exclusive" courtesy of zone55 at jatkoaika.com. I will get my coat after this. Promise.

The Truth about Penthouse

The guys started preparing for jetlag right away. Janne tortured his stereo all night so that nobody would fall asleep. The guys had Hartsport (=sports drink) together and watched Selanne's rookie video. I mean Teemu had milk but others had Harts. Each and every guy called wife/girlfriend and checked out the latest. Or mom if they didn't have a broad. At the end Janne passed around his fly (=fishing tackle) collection and there was still time for board games.

This is a Fact. I was there.

:lol