Player Discussion Thatcher Demko

[SeawaterOnIce]

I think this probably confirms no Demko for game 6 on Saturday if he isn't joining the team practice yet

I could see there being more will and pressure to get Demko in on Saturday if Silovs totally implodes and allows 5-6 goals tonight.

Silovs has earned another outing based off his play last game though.

 

[VanJack]

I could see there being more will and pressure to get Demko in on Saturday if Silovs totally implodes and allows 5-6 goals tonight.

Silovs has earned another outing based off his play last game though.

Reading some of Edmonton columnists and HF posters, they're convinced there are 'holes in Silovs' game that they haven't been able to exploit. Specifically, they claim that he lets out some juicy rebounds, that they just can't get to.

Head cheerleader Mark Spector even speculating that the Oilers are due for a breakout 6-1 game in this playoff series. Silovs simply isn't getting a ton of respect from his opponents. But maybe he can use that as motivation.

And at this juncture, who would you rather have in net going into a pivotal game #5....Arturs Silovs or Calvin Pickard?

 

[mossey3535]

So, I have a huge concern with Demko. Love this guy, so talented and athletic. But it's looking more and more like he can't stay healthy. I think he needs to be load managed carefully because if our goal is to win in the playoffs (crazy that we can say this after 8 years of dogshit) we need him to be at his best and we have a contract window of two seasons with him.

A big issue with this whole thing is the Clark Trackdown. Basically it works like this: the goalie keeps their feet until the opposing player is below the hash marks, regardless of depth from the net. The goalie does post integration (Reverse Vertical Horizontal or RVH). This starts at a roughly 45* angle against the post and becomes flatter as the rushing player approaches. If the play goes behind the net, the goalie does the splits and centers themselves to transition to do RVH on the far post.

Why would they do this? First of all, RVH is extremely effective. Some of you may remember VH, in which the post pad is vertical and trailing pad is horizontal. It gets amazing coverage, better than RVH in some ways but goalies couldn't push off the post and make it to the other side quickly. RVH lets you do that. It is harder to seal off the post because you have to contort your body to cover above the pad on the short side, but laterally it works perfectly.

For example, a common low-high play is the player going around the net fires it to a guy standing just outside the crease. With the RVH properly deployed, the goalie is almost square to this shot already. He can also push off the post to cut the angle, arriving at the quarter point of the crease semicircle, taking the far side of the net away.

However the RVH is also extremely deleterious to your hips. You can also do damage to your MCL (I have). We saw this with the re-aggravation injury on Demko's return. He did the trackdown on an innocuous play because that is the current Canucks system.

The trend around the league right now for goalie coaches is "keep your feet" and some are moving away from rote post integration. You can see here that the puck carrier is taken, the trailing forward isn't going towards the net. There's no reason to do RVH here. But Clark's system worked very well in the past because it pre-sets the RVH.



For Clark it is a repetition thing, do the same thing every play and you'll react the same every play. It breeds consistency. I disagree a lot for reasons I won't go into here, but it USED to work.

The issue is that it slowly stopped working. Look at Zadorov's goals on Skinner. He exploited the fact that Skinner went into the RVH too early.



In Clark's system this is perfectly acceptable. Skinner went down after Zadorov had crossed the hash marks and he released the puck just above the goal line. The issue is that this shot is being taught to the more talented young hockey players in skill camps everywhere. They are being taught to anticipate when the goalie might transition into RVH and to exploit that since the physical transition is awkward. And you can see it happening more and more in the NHL.

The issue is not that the RVH leaves the top half of the net open. The issue is that when used improperly it leaves the top half open. RVH was supposed to be used within 1-2 stick lengths of the net, for point blank chances because it takes away the aerial angle. Now shooters are delaying rushes so they can snap shots either high or far side - their lateral angle is poor but the aerial angle is open.

The immediate issue with Demko is that he has had double hip surgery already, and now three knee injuries. IMO the trackdown is becoming increasingly ineffective, and on top of that repeats a physically demanding move at inappropriate times, and by doing so it increases the volume of repetitions by easily 3-5 times that of if it was deployed judiciously. This is not including practice, where Demko routinely does dozens of these post integrations. He even has a calculation for his toe ties (string that ties the pad to the skate) that allows him to get optimal push in the RVH.

Torenius in Abby is more of a proponent of keeping your feet, I hope all the goalies in the system move away from blind application of the trackdown. The forwards have made their move countering the RVH and it's just a huge injury risk for Demko in particular. And even if Clark's intention is not that the goalies employ the trackdown stupidly, they do because it's an easy mental crutch.

 

[Flik]

So, I have a huge concern with Demko. Love this guy, so talented and athletic. But it's looking more and more like he can't stay healthy. I think he needs to be load managed carefully because if our goal is to win in the playoffs (crazy that we can say this after 8 years of dogshit) we need him to be at his best and we have a contract window of two seasons with him.

A big issue with this whole thing is the Clark Trackdown. Basically it works like this: the goalie keeps their feet until the opposing player is below the hash marks, regardless of depth from the net. The goalie does post integration (Reverse Vertical Horizontal or RVH). This starts at a roughly 45* angle against the post and becomes flatter as the rushing player approaches. If the play goes behind the net, the goalie does the splits and centers themselves to transition to do RVH on the far post.

Why would they do this? First of all, RVH is extremely effective. Some of you may remember VH, in which the post pad is vertical and trailing pad is horizontal. It gets amazing coverage, better than RVH in some ways but goalies couldn't push off the post and make it to the other side quickly. RVH lets you do that. It is harder to seal off the post because you have to contort your body to cover above the pad on the short side, but laterally it works perfectly.

For example, a common low-high play is the player going around the net fires it to a guy standing just outside the crease. With the RVH properly deployed, the goalie is almost square to this shot already. He can also push off the post to cut the angle, arriving at the quarter point of the crease semicircle, taking the far side of the net away.

However the RVH is also extremely deleterious to your hips. You can also do damage to your MCL (I have). We saw this with the re-aggravation injury on Demko's return. He did the trackdown on an innocuous play because that is the current Canucks system.

The trend around the league right now for goalie coaches is "keep your feet" and some are moving away from rote post integration. You can see here that the puck carrier is taken, the trailing forward isn't going towards the net. There's no reason to do RVH here. But Clark's system worked very well in the past because it pre-sets the RVH.



For Clark it is a repetition thing, do the same thing every play and you'll react the same every play. It breeds consistency. I disagree a lot for reasons I won't go into here, but it USED to work.

The issue is that it slowly stopped working. Look at Zadorov's goals on Skinner. He exploited the fact that Skinner went into the RVH too early.



In Clark's system this is perfectly acceptable. Skinner went down after Zadorov had crossed the hash marks and he released the puck just above the goal line. The issue is that this shot is being taught to the more talented young hockey players in skill camps everywhere. They are being taught to anticipate when the goalie might transition into RVH and to exploit that since the physical transition is awkward. And you can see it happening more and more in the NHL.

The issue is not that the RVH leaves the top half of the net open. The issue is that when used improperly it leaves the top half open. RVH was supposed to be used within 1-2 stick lengths of the net, for point blank chances because it takes away the aerial angle. Now shooters are delaying rushes so they can snap shots either high or far side - their lateral angle is poor but the aerial angle is open.

The immediate issue with Demko is that he has had double hip surgery already, and now three knee injuries. IMO the trackdown is becoming increasingly ineffective, and on top of that repeats a physically demanding move at inappropriate times, and by doing so it increases the volume of repetitions by easily 3-5 times that of if it was deployed judiciously. This is not including practice, where Demko routinely does dozens of these post integrations. He even has a calculation for his toe ties (string that ties the pad to the skate) that allows him to get optimal push in the RVH.

Torenius in Abby is more of a proponent of keeping your feet, I hope all the goalies in the system move away from blind application of the trackdown. The forwards have made their move countering the RVH and it's just a huge injury risk for Demko in particular. And even if Clark's intention is not that the goalies employ the trackdown stupidly, they do because it's an easy mental crutch.

Man, we are so lucky on this board to have your in-depth goalie analysis. Keep it real @mossey3535. Mad respect.

I'm hoping we finally scale Demko back to 45-50 starts (max) in the regular season, or do a 50/50 split if and when it is possible.

 

[Zippgunn]

Man, we are so lucky on this board to have your in-depth goalie analysis. Keep it real @mossey3535. Mad respect.

I'm hoping we finally scale Demko back to 45-50 starts (max) in the regular season, or do a 50/50 split if and when it is possible.

I fear that Demko is now past his best before date. There is nothing more heartbreaking than an elite goalie who is not always available when you need him because of endless injuries. Luckily it looks like we have some very good goalies in the pipeline. This next season will tell the tale I'm sure.

 

[Petey But Really Jim]

So, I have a huge concern with Demko. Love this guy, so talented and athletic. But it's looking more and more like he can't stay healthy. I think he needs to be load managed carefully because if our goal is to win in the playoffs (crazy that we can say this after 8 years of dogshit) we need him to be at his best and we have a contract window of two seasons with him.

A big issue with this whole thing is the Clark Trackdown. Basically it works like this: the goalie keeps their feet until the opposing player is below the hash marks, regardless of depth from the net. The goalie does post integration (Reverse Vertical Horizontal or RVH). This starts at a roughly 45* angle against the post and becomes flatter as the rushing player approaches. If the play goes behind the net, the goalie does the splits and centers themselves to transition to do RVH on the far post.

Why would they do this? First of all, RVH is extremely effective. Some of you may remember VH, in which the post pad is vertical and trailing pad is horizontal. It gets amazing coverage, better than RVH in some ways but goalies couldn't push off the post and make it to the other side quickly. RVH lets you do that. It is harder to seal off the post because you have to contort your body to cover above the pad on the short side, but laterally it works perfectly.

For example, a common low-high play is the player going around the net fires it to a guy standing just outside the crease. With the RVH properly deployed, the goalie is almost square to this shot already. He can also push off the post to cut the angle, arriving at the quarter point of the crease semicircle, taking the far side of the net away.

However the RVH is also extremely deleterious to your hips. You can also do damage to your MCL (I have). We saw this with the re-aggravation injury on Demko's return. He did the trackdown on an innocuous play because that is the current Canucks system.

The trend around the league right now for goalie coaches is "keep your feet" and some are moving away from rote post integration. You can see here that the puck carrier is taken, the trailing forward isn't going towards the net. There's no reason to do RVH here. But Clark's system worked very well in the past because it pre-sets the RVH.



For Clark it is a repetition thing, do the same thing every play and you'll react the same every play. It breeds consistency. I disagree a lot for reasons I won't go into here, but it USED to work.

The issue is that it slowly stopped working. Look at Zadorov's goals on Skinner. He exploited the fact that Skinner went into the RVH too early.



In Clark's system this is perfectly acceptable. Skinner went down after Zadorov had crossed the hash marks and he released the puck just above the goal line. The issue is that this shot is being taught to the more talented young hockey players in skill camps everywhere. They are being taught to anticipate when the goalie might transition into RVH and to exploit that since the physical transition is awkward. And you can see it happening more and more in the NHL.

The issue is not that the RVH leaves the top half of the net open. The issue is that when used improperly it leaves the top half open. RVH was supposed to be used within 1-2 stick lengths of the net, for point blank chances because it takes away the aerial angle. Now shooters are delaying rushes so they can snap shots either high or far side - their lateral angle is poor but the aerial angle is open.

The immediate issue with Demko is that he has had double hip surgery already, and now three knee injuries. IMO the trackdown is becoming increasingly ineffective, and on top of that repeats a physically demanding move at inappropriate times, and by doing so it increases the volume of repetitions by easily 3-5 times that of if it was deployed judiciously. This is not including practice, where Demko routinely does dozens of these post integrations. He even has a calculation for his toe ties (string that ties the pad to the skate) that allows him to get optimal push in the RVH.

Torenius in Abby is more of a proponent of keeping your feet, I hope all the goalies in the system move away from blind application of the trackdown. The forwards have made their move countering the RVH and it's just a huge injury risk for Demko in particular. And even if Clark's intention is not that the goalies employ the trackdown stupidly, they do because it's an easy mental crutch.

You did a really good job explaining this.

 

[VanJack]

You have to feel for the guy.....over the last number of seasons, Demko has toiled for some pretty bad editions of the Canucks.

Then, when they finally break through and win the Pacific Division and are setting themselves up for a long playoff run, Demko goes down with an injury that caused him to miss basically the last month of the season. Then gets hurt again in the first game of Round #1, and isn't seen again.

I share other posters concerns about his injury history. I'm at the point where I'd almost like to see Demko and Silovs split the starts next season. Not only would it hopefully keep Demko fresher and out of the infirmary, it would at least mean that the Canucks wouldn't be forced to go into another Cup playoffs with a goalie who'd played only nine NHL games.

 

[Zanon]

You have to feel for the guy.....over the last number of seasons, Demko has toiled for some pretty bad editions of the Canucks.

Then, when they finally break through and win the Pacific Division and are setting themselves up for a long playoff run, Demko goes down with an injury that caused him to miss basically the last month of the season. Then gets hurt again in the first game of Round #1, and isn't seen again.

I share other posters concerns about his injury history. I'm at the point where I'd almost like to see Demko and Silovs split the starts next season. Not only would it hopefully keep Demko fresher and out of the infirmary, it would at least mean that the Canucks wouldn't be forced to go into another Cup playoffs with a goalie who'd played only nine NHL games.

Silovs has more NHL playoff experience than Demko now, heh.