TV: Succession (HBO)

[kook10]

I didn't love the finale so much. I did really like that it was Tom, though. That said, I think they could have developed Shiv's turn at the end a little more. Some have said that once she knew it was Tom she would rather hitch her wagon to his and get paid too, but I think that left too much off the page and screen. Because of that, the final vote was a little out of the blue and when Tom said "I have a car coming in 20" it seemed more like he was twisting the knife with regard to their "convenience" discussion rather than actually genuinely communicating. It all felt a little ghost in the machine.

I also feel like the Matsson character kind of started strong this season and petered out, or was diminished by random unbelievable things he divulged. To me it would have been much more satisfying to see the children thoroughly and cleverly outmaneuvered than to have Matsson bumble his way to an even playing field only to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat through their self desctruction.

..and Stewie fell in line way too easy.

 

[NyQuil]

My understanding is that it was still a very highly inflated stock price meaning that the Roys remain staggeringly insanely rich nonetheless.

 

[John Price]

My understanding is that it was still a very highly inflated stock price meaning that the Roys remain staggeringly insanely rich nonetheless.

I kind of feel for Kendall as the company is his life but he flipped out during the shareholder meeting which wasn't a good look

 

[Peasy]

Like Kendall said, "We're already rich."

This was never about the money for any of them.

 

[Hivemind]

I also feel like the Matsson character kind of started strong this season and petered out, or was diminished by random unbelievable things he divulged. To me it would have been much more satisfying to see the children thoroughly and cleverly outmaneuvered than to have Matsson bumble his way to an even playing field only to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat through their self desctruction.

Agreed with this, more or less.

I really wanted to buy into Matsson's character, as I'm a big Alexander Skarsgard fan (well, a fan of the whole family really). But he never really felt truly believable. He felt like someone without autism imaging what an autistic tech billionaire must be like. He felt two dimensional, not at all real, and like he was there just to be a plot device to use for the sibling's (and Tom's) narratives. None of his moves or motivations felt justified or coherent.

It also really ties back to the comment you made a couple pages ago:

Spoiler

I am wondering if Ebba is playing a role and really laying a trap. The sexual harassment, comms director who doesnt like people, and India numbers storylines came way too easy. All of the Roys bought them all hook, line and sinker.

All of this stuff just felt so un-earned. None of it felt like the siblings actually did anything to get these bits of information. They were just conveniently delivered whenever the plot needed them.

 

[John Price]

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Phenomenal ending that matched the spirit of the show.

As Logan said, they are not serious people. None of them deserved to run the company.

Roman was the only one to realize it, 'we're all bullshit'.

In the end none of them have any control of the company, maybe Shiv thinks she does but Tom is just a figurehead CEO there to be Matsson's bitch. The Roy's lost, as they should have. Kendall is the closest to competent and he is still not even close.

 

[Bounces R Way]

I liked the finale. Was happy to see that nobody really got what they wanted because none of them really changed. There were many moments where the characters had fleeting epiphanies and changed lanes to suit their own purposes but fundamentally I think they were the exact same fatally flawed people they were in season 1. Kendall was still the entitled rich boy narcissist who threw a tantrum the second things didn't go his way, Roman was still the violently emotional morally bankrupt character with a serious Oedipus complex, Shiv was still the backstabbing disloyal bitch who's entire self-worth is still tied to a man, and Tom was still a cuckolded lackey with no spine. Connor was the only redeemable sibling in my mind as he didn't try to be Logan Roy and set out to make his own way, misguided and foolish as it was. He got the hot wife and the huge NY apartment, without expelling all his energy into a company and power struggle that clearly didn't want him, I'd say he wins.

As a character study this show really succeeded, the dialogue was captivating and believable, and the dynamics between the family had layers of complexity that is hard to pull off. Yes in some places the plot seemed a little clumsy and forced with somewhat ridiculous twists but it was never the subject of the series in my opinion. It just was meant to give shape and setting to the conflict between the characters.

So many narratives have been built around character has flaw or sees things one way, events happen and character learns lesson to grow and ultimately achieve victory over flaw and get desired fulfilling outcome. I found it refreshing that this show didn't do that, the characters didn't put in any meaningful work to change and work on themselves and thus were not rewarded in the end. I think that paints a more true-to-life picture of human nature, everyone loves a redemption story and wants to believe change for the better is this easily attainable thing but in reality most people don't change, don't evolve, don't learn from their mistakes, and will take the shortest easiest path to any momentary success they can find.

 

[Peasy]

I liked the finale. Was happy to see that nobody really got what they wanted because none of them really changed. There were many moments where the characters had fleeting epiphanies and changed lanes to suit their own purposes but fundamentally I think they were the exact same fatally flawed people they were in season 1. Kendall was still the entitled rich boy narcissist who threw a tantrum the second things didn't go his way, Roman was still the violently emotional morally bankrupt character with a serious Oedipus complex, Shiv was still the backstabbing disloyal bitch who's entire self-worth is still tied to a man, and Tom was still a cuckolded lackey with no spine. Connor was the only redeemable sibling in my mind as he didn't try to be Logan Roy and set out to make his own way, misguided and foolish as it was. He got the hot wife and the huge NY apartment, without expelling all his energy into a company and power struggle that clearly didn't want him, I'd say he wins.

As a character study this show really succeeded, the dialogue was captivating and believable, and the dynamics between the family had layers of complexity that is hard to pull off. Yes in some places the plot seemed a little clumsy and forced with somewhat ridiculous twists but it was never the subject of the series in my opinion. It just was meant to give shape and setting to the conflict between the characters.

So many narratives have been built around character has flaw or sees things one way, events happen and character learns lesson to grow and ultimately achieve victory over flaw and get desired fulfilling outcome. I found it refreshing that this show didn't do that, the characters didn't put in any meaningful work to change and work on themselves and thus were not rewarded in the end. I think that paints a more true-to-life picture of human nature, everyone loves a redemption story and wants to believe change for the better is this easily attainable thing but in reality most people don't change, don't evolve, don't learn from their mistakes, and will take the shortest easiest path to any momentary success they can find.

As Jesse Armstrong has continued to say and think, "People don't change". Hes been beating that drum for awhile with Succession and stuck true to it.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

As Jesse Armstrong has continued to say and think, "People don't change". Hes been beating that drum for awhile with Succession and stuck true to it.

There was a good interview with him on Fresh Air/NPR with him yesterday where he reiterated that.

 

[NyQuil]

There was a good interview with him on Fresh Air/NPR with him yesterday where he reiterated that.

Not sure if you've caught this, or if it's been posted:

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

Kendal was good at presentations (Living+, L to the OG).
Shiv was good in the political space.
Roman had good instincts.

Logan had all 3. They could not put aside their childish beefs to combine forces and continue their father's legacy.

The finale was perfect in the sense that it made complete sense considering what we've seen from them over 4 seasons. I think not knowing the exact moment of Shiv's heel-turn is great from a finale perspective. We'll be talking about it for years, like the end of Sopranos.

Was it when Kendall put his feet up on the desk in the big chair?
Was it when Kendall pompously spoke about how bad the deal was in front of the board?
Did she hatch this plan with Tom before arriving at Waystar HQ?

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

Kendal was good at presentations (Living+, L to the OG).
Shiv was good in the political space.
Roman had good instincts.

Logan had all 3. They could not put aside their childish beefs to combine forces and continue their father's legacy.

The finale was perfect in the sense that it made complete sense considering what we've seen from them over 4 seasons. I think not knowing the exact moment of Shiv's heel-turn is great from a finale perspective. We'll be talking about it for years, like the end of Sopranos.

Was it when Kendall put his feet up on the desk in the big chair?
Was it when Kendall pompously spoke about how bad the deal was in front of the board?
Did she hatch this plan with Tom before arriving at Waystar HQ?

 

[John Price]

I'm about to finish Season 3, 4 more episodes to go. Amazing how Kendall continues to associate with Stewie who is actively trying to take his company down. Also, Kendall's desire to take over Waystar Royco is a bit confusing. Why doesn't he just branch off and start his own company.

That said Season 3 is pretty fire

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

I'm about to finish Season 3, 4 more episodes to go. Amazing how Kendall continues to associate with Stewie who is actively trying to take his company down. Also, Kendall's desire to take over Waystar Royco is a bit confusing. Why doesn't he just branch off and start his own company.

That said Season 3 is pretty fire

He just wants his dad’s approval, even in death. That’s my read.

 

[NyQuil]

Also, Kendall's desire to take over Waystar Royco is a bit confusing. Why doesn't he just branch off and start his own company.

They had that idea that the siblings were going to pursue together but ultimately discarded. (I forget the name)

I think the message is also that they are full of buzzwords and big ideas but little follow-through.

It's a pattern that is frequently repeated in real life where the original creator of a company has that entrepreneurial spirit and is less risk averse but the kids raised in privilege often have more of a caretaker mentality where they are inherently afraid of losing what they have because they didn't build it up in the first place.

 

[MAHJ71]

I'm about to finish Season 3, 4 more episodes to go. Amazing how Kendall continues to associate with Stewie who is actively trying to take his company down. Also, Kendall's desire to take over Waystar Royco is a bit confusing. Why doesn't he just branch off and start his own company.

That said Season 3 is pretty fire

Just finished season 3 last night. Kendall’s continued downward spiral is kind of hard to watch. Then again, this show has always felt weird to me… not a single character I actually find myself liking/rooting for

 

[Hivemind]

Kendall's desire to take over Waystar Royco is a bit confusing. Why doesn't he just branch off and start his own company.

He was raised his entire life with the concept of taking over his father's empire dangled in front of him.

 

[John Price]

Everything about Kendall's birthday party is so wild

Best episode of TV ever?

 

[NyQuil]

Everything about Kendall's birthday party is so wild

Best episode of TV ever?

I feel cheated that we never saw his ridiculous vision of his grand finale but that's part of the genius of the episode.

 

[slybel]

Good show, but I thought it was a frustrating roller coaster ... Yeah? Yeah....

 

[zombie kopitar]

just finished this; I didn't know exactly what to think and then watched that extended writer/director's commentary talking about how they wanted this a modern Shakespearean tragedy. That's great and everything and I can appreciate it in a different lens that way, but not sure I'd completely love the ending without hearing their intention. At the end of the day though, you're (or at least I was ) more sympathetic with Tom and Roman over Kendall and Shiv; and in that sense the good guys won and bad guys lost, in the most bastardized meaning of the term