Arizona Coyotes going for 1 Billion, does this increase other Franchises?

[Yukon Joe]

Over and over round and round...the special pleading and "If only they had won a cup every year they would have been a success.... if only they would have had some mythical local owner(none showed up ever) with a perfect understanding of the market and hockey and AZ who never made a mistake and gave golden tickets out in chocolate bars the Coyotes would be successful.....LOL fairy tales and moonbeams...children talk like that not grown ups.

1. unsubstantiated bs. the value of the Thrashers when sold was what 200 million? or so... and they posted losses of well over 100 million in the ten years before the sale? if you know anything about money or business.... when your outgoing expenses exceed your income? your upkeep becomes your downfall. No amount of theoretical future financing potential makes that a good business model.sure if they had held on another 15 years and lost another 150-200 million they would be profitable now? lol

If the thrashers MADE money you can 100% guarantee ASG would be in the hockey business right now. as it was they saw the bleeding and moved to stop it.

2.Yes the 'yotes were a disaster from day you can romanticize the fan base all you want... but the business doesn't lie... Lowest tv views, lowest merch sales, lowest ticket prices... zero corporate support, almost no interest in support or ownership from ANYONE local.... sure they had decent attendance for 2-3 years..here or there.....but they were losing money that whole time. which was why they moved to Glendale....because they couldn't make money with the arena deal they had....and they just kept losing money after they moved there... the save the 'yotes rally in 2011 or whatever in glendale had 300 people turn up..... not 10,000 not 100,000....300. in a city of Millions, a city you are trying to sell as a viable hockey market......


Rich people don't liquidate profitable enterprises... they just don't.

and until you all admit the reality of that then this may as well be the Fugu's lies about hockey markets forum. because it sure isn't about business.

@Skidooboy you should try engaging with what people actually say.

Thrashers were sold for $110 mil (plus $60 mil relocation fee). This was publicized at the time. So actually I made a mistake - (because I forgot to separate out the relocation fee which went to the league). The Thrashers would have been worth 9x as much in 2024 as compared to 2011 ($110 mil compared to the $1bil Meruelo received for the Yotes). I'll stand by my statement - if ASG, with the full benefit of hindsight, had to do it over they would have kept the Thrashers.

The actual losses of any NHL franchise are not publicized. You're pulling numbers like $100 mil in losses, out of your butt.

Yeah, we're pretty sure that the Thrashers and Coyotes were losing money - but we don't have the hard evidence of such.

The economics of the league are just so different nowadays. Just as one example - the Edmonton OIlers came very, very close to relocating back in the late 90s. They're now one of the most profitable teams in the league.

I have no idea if teams in Atlanta or Phoenix will be successful in the future. I don't have access to those kinds of projections. But I do know that saying something is impossible based on things that heppened 20 years ago isn't useful.

 

[TheLegend]

yes I am asking for citations...because people keep saying the team was profitable....when it never was.NEVER.

Yet throughout this post you continue to make claim after claim without any proof whatsoever to support it.

Gets down to the old theme “if I bark about it long enough and hard enough then everyone will believe me.”

You just admitted everything I have been arguing for the last 18 years...and proved my point..."situation wasn't good for the long term"Untenable".... right from the horse's mouth. .....THE TEAM WAS A LOSS...NEVER MADE MONEY.

To steal your line…. “Citations please….. “

you talk about attendance..and fan passion.

Hear that argument from every fan base…. but continue…

I'm talking about MONEY. and the team lost it from DAY 1. and that isn't up for debate, it's not some ineffable statement that I can't back up..it's not some hazy ill defined "If only X then things would be different" statement.

Again….. citations. (you won’t find any because unless you’ve had direct access to the books of every NHL franchise you can’t know. Nobody can)

The history is public, widely discussed and obvious...... and you know it. the team lost money from day 1, no legitimate ownership groups would touch the team with a 10 foot pole because of those losses, the league kept propping up liars and conmen as owners because of this.

And every one of them chose to stay in the market. Did you know Alex Meruelo never had to sign that “7-year no relocation clause” people often talked about? The Coyotes were portable from the day he brought the franchise yet he spent tens of millions of HIS OWN MONEY working towards fixing the previous 14-years worth of missteps.

no local owners (and the Valley is one of the richest fastest growing areas in America) ever put a serious effort into owning or saving the team. that speaks volumes right there.

Does it?

In this world of global conglomerates I didn’t realize it was mandatory you had to actually reside in the market before you buy into it?

Meruelo did buy a $12 million estate in Fountain Hills so he is for all purposes a “local owner” right now. But he also has business in California and Nevada so I guess he should no longer do business there either??

so when are you going to quit making statements and show me the money? I have multiple bankruptcies and ownership groups and failures, mullet Arena, unpaid hotel bills..the Glendale bond fiasco, relocations....all kinds of stories about the losses and failures...TV ratings and merch sales and ticket prices and empty buildings
I can easily point to a lot of things that verify that the team was a loss....

You keep talking about "early on" but never actually offer any info that shows the team made money. 15+ years later..and it's all fairytales about winning every year and "what if?".

Didn’t claim they did. Just pointed to some things that would somewhat fly in the face of you continuing drumbeating.

Because if the Coyotes were losing money while sitting in the pack attendancewise when they first landed in Phoenix then logically the NHL as a whole was in deep shit.

But then again…. nobody can see the books so nobody can say for certainty what these teams actually make or lose.

SHOW ME THE MONEY. or admit the truth. there are lots of dedicated hockey loving fans in the valley...just not enough to justify a team. which is why it failed. not the commute, not some conspiracy, not politics.... just plain old inability to generate profit.

Go ask for the books.

 

[Skidooboy]

Yet throughout this post you continue to make claim after claim without any proof whatsoever to support it.

Gets down to the old theme “if I bark about it long enough and hard enough then everyone will believe me.”


To steal your line…. “Citations please….. “

Hear that argument from every fan base…. but continue…


Again….. citations. (you won’t find any because unless you’ve had direct access to the books of every NHL franchise you can’t know. Nobody can)


And every one of them chose to stay in the market. Did you know Alex Meruelo never had to sign that “7-year no relocation clause” people often talked about? The Coyotes were portable from the day he brought the franchise yet he spent tens of millions of HIS OWN MONEY working towards fixing the previous 14-years worth of missteps.


Does it?

In this world of global conglomerates I didn’t realize it was mandatory you had to actually reside in the market before you buy into it?

Meruelo did buy a $12 million estate in Fountain Hills so he is for all purposes a “local owner” right now. But he also has business in California and Nevada so I guess he should no longer do business there either??


Didn’t claim they did. Just pointed to some things that would somewhat fly in the face of you continuing drumbeating.

Because if the Coyotes were losing money while sitting in the pack attendancewise when they first landed in Phoenix then logically the NHL as a whole was in deep shit.

But then again…. nobody can see the books so nobody can say for certainty what these teams actually make or lose.



Go ask for the books.

citations? ok

lets examine what I'm saying and what you need to be asssured I'm not making things up...
lets start with onwe simple claim...

the coyotes were in bankruptcy in 2009. do I need to cite that or will you take that as fact? so the 70 million moyes claims he lost and the expected 45 mill in losses he claims? are those facts? or do I need to provide sources? how about the 54.8 million losses in 2008?

wait I'll provide a source.

Arizona Coyotes: one NHL team’s bitter divorce from its own home city

The Coyotes’ relationship with Glendale provides a grim and vivid tale about how things can go south for taxpayer subsidized sports ventures

www.theguardian.com

 

[Skidooboy]

Yet throughout this post you continue to make claim after claim without any proof whatsoever to support it.

Gets down to the old theme “if I bark about it long enough and hard enough then everyone will believe me.”


To steal your line…. “Citations please….. “

Hear that argument from every fan base…. but continue…


Again….. citations. (you won’t find any because unless you’ve had direct access to the books of every NHL franchise you can’t know. Nobody can)


And every one of them chose to stay in the market. Did you know Alex Meruelo never had to sign that “7-year no relocation clause” people often talked about? The Coyotes were portable from the day he brought the franchise yet he spent tens of millions of HIS OWN MONEY working towards fixing the previous 14-years worth of missteps.


Does it?

In this world of global conglomerates I didn’t realize it was mandatory you had to actually reside in the market before you buy into it?

Meruelo did buy a $12 million estate in Fountain Hills so he is for all purposes a “local owner” right now. But he also has business in California and Nevada so I guess he should no longer do business there either??


Didn’t claim they did. Just pointed to some things that would somewhat fly in the face of you continuing drumbeating.

Because if the Coyotes were losing money while sitting in the pack attendancewise when they first landed in Phoenix then logically the NHL as a whole was in deep shit.

But then again…. nobody can see the books so nobody can say for certainty what these teams actually make or lose.



Go ask for the books.

also making up shit. attendance doesn't matter revenue does. if I fill a barn at $35 average ticket I won't make as much as the guy who sells 3/4 at $75 average ticket... you like to sound smart and authoritative...but is this math to hard for you to understand?

the yotes had routinely some of the lowest priced tickets in the league,...


as for citations? you have asked and I have provided things over and over again during the last ten years we jhave been having this discussion...I posted TV numbers, merch sales, ticket prices attendance...on and on the list of info is long...and you never respond when I do...you go silent, then when I bring it up again , in this case years or months later you suddenly demand to see it all again? that's not discussion that's trolling.

 

[Skidooboy]

@Skidooboy you should try engaging with what people actually say.

Thrashers were sold for $110 mil (plus $60 mil relocation fee). This was publicized at the time. So actually I made a mistake - (because I forgot to separate out the relocation fee which went to the league). The Thrashers would have been worth 9x as much in 2024 as compared to 2011 ($110 mil compared to the $1bil Meruelo received for the Yotes). I'll stand by my statement - if ASG, with the full benefit of hindsight, had to do it over they would have kept the Thrashers.

The actual losses of any NHL franchise are not publicized. You're pulling numbers like $100 mil in losses, out of your butt.

Yeah, we're pretty sure that the Thrashers and Coyotes were losing money - but we don't have the hard evidence of such.

The economics of the league are just so different nowadays. Just as one example - the Edmonton OIlers came very, very close to relocating back in the late 90s. They're now one of the most profitable teams in the league.

I have no idea if teams in Atlanta or Phoenix will be successful in the future. I don't have access to those kinds of projections. But I do know that saying something is impossible based on things that heppened 20 years ago isn't useful.

i'm taking the 100 million in losses from the news articles.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/lawsuit-claims-thrashers-have-lost-130-million-us-1.1106053

but I guess facts and history don't matter....just your fuzzy memories of a perfect hockey market.

 

[Yukon Joe]

i'm taking the 100 million in losses from the news articles.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/lawsuit-claims-thrashers-have-lost-130-million-us-1.1106053

but I guess facts and history don't matter....just your fuzzy memories of a perfect hockey market.

OK cool, so that is a source. That's something.

Worth noting though that a lawsuit itself is just a claim. If it goes to trial then the claims are made out. I don't believe this lawsuit ever went to trial, and eventually all of ASG's issues were resolved when they sold their remaining interests.

You seem to have me marked as some kind of Atlanta booster when that's hardly the case (you should have heard how loudly a cheered when the Thrashers relocated to Winnipeg). Instead I more like to respond to people who make such definitive statements and reply about all the information we don't have.

 

[GreenHornet]

I'll stand by my statement - if ASG, with the full benefit of hindsight, had to do it over they would have kept the Thrashers.

For a relatively normal, functional and/or competent owner or ownership group, you may be right. HOWEVER, you seem to forget this was the Atlanta $pirit Septocluster™ we're talking about in this instance.

Remember that they never wanted the Thrashers and only wanted the Hawks and (then-)Philips Arena operating rights. As their own court filings in their lawsuit against their own lawyers indicated, they were trying to unload the Thrashers form the minute they bought the whole package. So, I seriously doubt any foresight, present-sight or hindsight would have made them want to keep the Thrashers.

 

[Yukon Joe]

For a relatively normal, functional and/or competent owner or ownership group, you may be right. HOWEVER, you seem to forget this was the Atlanta $pirit Septocluster™ we're talking about in this instance.

Remember that they never wanted the Thrashers and only wanted the Hawks and (then-)Philips Arena operating rights. As their own court filings in their lawsuit against their own lawyers indicated, they were trying to unload the Thrashers form the minute they bought the whole package. So, I seriously doubt any foresight, present-sight or hindsight would have made them want to keep the Thrashers.

Oh that totally depends on knowing what would happen in the future, which isn't how life works. I get that.

But think it through: according to @Skidooboy 's lawsuit the Thrashers lost $130 mil between 2004 and 2011. So that's $18 mil per year. A lot of money. They sold the Thrashers for $110 mil in 2011, sold the Hawks in 2015.

But what would the Thrashers have been worth in 2015? Well for starters that would have been an extra $72 mil in losses. But you know what - (as comparables) in 2016 the Vegas Golden Knights had an expansion fee of $500 mil, and the Islanders sold for $485 mil. So lets even be conservative and say that in 2015 the Thrashers would have been worth $400 mil. That $290 mil in increased value more than makes up for the extra $72 mil in losses.

 

[tucker3434]

Oh that totally depends on knowing what would happen in the future, which isn't how life works. I get that.

But think it through: according to @Skidooboy 's lawsuit the Thrashers lost $130 mil between 2004 and 2011. So that's $18 mil per year. A lot of money. They sold the Thrashers for $110 mil in 2011, sold the Hawks in 2015.

But what would the Thrashers have been worth in 2015? Well for starters that would have been an extra $72 mil in losses. But you know what - (as comparables) in 2016 the Vegas Golden Knights had an expansion fee of $500 mil, and the Islanders sold for $485 mil. So lets even be conservative and say that in 2015 the Thrashers would have been worth $400 mil. That $290 mil in increased value more than makes up for the extra $72 mil in losses.

Those aren't cash losses, which is generally how most of these franchises are judged. Those are book losses. It includes interest, tax, depreciation and amortization, all excluded when Forbes does their evaluation since they tend to be more owner specific. Judging the Thrashers by that number and everyone else by cash flows is not reasonable for obvious reasons, nor is it fair to assume ASG would've needed to fund $18m in losses. That number existed so they could justify a $200m lawsuit.

Also, the 2013 CBA happened, increasing the owner share of HRR to 50% and increasing revenue sharing by 33%. Finances would have improved. The Thrashers sold at a terrible time. Gave the Jets a great deal. At lease ASG got screwed.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Those aren't cash losses, which is generally how most of these franchises are judged. Those are book losses. It includes interest, tax, depreciation and amortization, all excluded when Forbes does their evaluation since they tend to be more owner specific. Judging the Thrashers by that number and everyone else by cash flows is not reasonable for obvious reasons, nor is it fair to assume ASG would've needed to fund $18m in losses. That number existed so they could justify a $200m lawsuit.

Also, the 2013 CBA happened, increasing the owner share of HRR to 50% and increasing revenue sharing by 33%. Finances would have improved. The Thrashers sold at a terrible time. Gave the Jets a great deal. At lease ASG got screwed.

It was all extremely "back of the envelope" kind of figures to be sure. I was trying to take the most pessimistic figures.

But it was all in support of my really basic point - I bet the ASG crowd, with the benefit of hindsight, wishes they'd held on to the Thrashers longer.

 

[Skidooboy]

sure they would have made more cash on the sale and relocation. if they held on….

how much would they have lost? 50 mill? 150? 170?

even a billionaire can’t bleed cash all day every day… even if they can the don’t want or like too. they didn’t get rich running charities.

ASG had seen the books. they knew the team was taking loss after loss after loss and they didn’t want them.
that’s the point.


can you honestly tell me that if the thrashers had been as profitable as the NBAteam that ASG would’ve still just wanted to get rid of them? out of spite? or a real dislike of hockey?

no. they had seen the books and KNEW that there was nothing but losses on the ledger.

they were forced to take an NHL team that they didn’t want and that wasn’t profitable in order to acquire the assets they did want. As soon as they could, they cut the money, losing asset free from the portfolio.

 

[tucker3434]

sure they would have made more cash on the sale and relocation. if they held on….

how much would they have lost? 50 mill? 150? 170?

even a billionaire can’t bleed cash all day every day… even if they can the don’t want or like too. they didn’t get rich running charities.

ASG had seen the books. they knew the team was taking loss after loss after loss and they didn’t want them.
that’s the point.


can you honestly tell me that if the thrashers had been as profitable as the NBAteam that ASG would’ve still just wanted to get rid of them? out of spite? or a real dislike of hockey?

no. they had seen the books and KNEW that there was nothing but losses on the ledger.

they were forced to take an NHL team that they didn’t want and that wasn’t profitable in order to acquire the assets they did want. As soon as they could, they cut the money, losing asset free from the portfolio.

The Hawks are about as profitable as the Leafs. So that’s a nonsense comparison. The NBA teams will always carry more weight than their NHL counterparts.

Look at any article about the financial health of the league at that time. Pick one at random. Tell me what you see. There were lots of billionaires bleeding money every year. It’s why the 2013 lockout happened.

 

[TheLegend]

citations? ok

lets examine what I'm saying and what you need to be asssured I'm not making things up...
lets start with onwe simple claim...

the coyotes were in bankruptcy in 2009. do I need to cite that or will you take that as fact? so the 70 million moyes claims he lost and the expected 45 mill in losses he claims? are those facts? or do I need to provide sources? how about the 54.8 million losses in 2008?

wait I'll provide a source.

Arizona Coyotes: one NHL team’s bitter divorce from its own home city

The Coyotes’ relationship with Glendale provides a grim and vivid tale about how things can go south for taxpayer subsidized sports ventures

www.theguardian.com

Great… This describes just one portion of the 28 years.

What about the first 4 years downtown?

I mentioned where Richard Burke (who was one of the original owner who brought the Coyotes to Arizona said escalating salaries were beginning to take its toll and they only could sustain things for another four years.

AFAIK they weren’t losing money then but they knew it wasn’t sustainable for the long term. Not when they were limited to around 13k seats that were usable.

Even with the Coyotes were in the middle third of the league in attendance (despite a max capacity less that Winnipeg now).

What’s that say for the rest of the league?

 

[TheLegend]

also making up shit. attendance doesn't matter revenue does. if I fill a barn at $35 average ticket I won't make as much as the guy who sells 3/4 at $75 average ticket... you like to sound smart and authoritative...but is this math to hard for you to understand?

the yotes had routinely some of the lowest priced tickets in the league,...


as for citations? you have asked and I have provided things over and over again during the last ten years we jhave been having this discussion...I posted TV numbers, merch sales, ticket prices attendance...on and on the list of info is long...and you never respond when I do...you go silent, then when I bring it up again , in this case years or months later you suddenly demand to see it all again? that's not discussion that's trolling.

LOL (sorry Sarge….. I know you hate that.)

You’ve really proved you can dig up articles on the internet.

A couple of us have already told you that none of us really know because we don’t have access to any of the team financials.

While It’s safe to presume the Coyotes have lost money in the latter years, your claim “they’ve been losing since day one” is just a pandering assumption. You might be right and then you might not.

You say “SHOW ME THE MONEY”

So show us the books.

 

[Skidooboy]

do you see how absurd your arguments are you’ve been swearing to me that Phoenix despite 30 years of failure was a f***ing gem of a hockey market and anytime I bring up information that says or proves that it wasn’t you don’t call that good enough and then you go off and talk about what a wonderful market it is and how the NHL is gonna grow there and it’s just gonna be a success

again this isn’t conversation. it’s trolling .

so I’m just gonna ignore you from now on because it’s obvious that you’re unwilling to admit facts that don’t agree with your preconceived notions.

And I will focus on people who are actually adult, legitimate and genuine in their ability to discuss the history and business of this sport