Was Martin St. Louis in the wrong for the 2014 Sochi situation?

connellc

Registered User
Dec 2, 2010
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Let's take a look at his numbers.

5-0-0 +2

Healthy scratch one game.

I understand both points of view, but I favor Yzerman slightly for a couple reasons. First, performance wise he was a nothing-burger. I remember watching the tournament and other than a PP chance with Crosby he received little ice time and was invisible. At Least Kunitz put the dagger in Sweden's heart with that 3-0 goal, but I was madder that Kunitz was getting ice time and not even keeping up with the play. He certainly wasn't the worst pick on the team though.

Second, he did not fit the team dynamics and was certainly not a Babcock/Julien defense first puck possession at all cost team. They clearly wanted to cycle the puck in the offensive zone and worked like hell to get it back. St Louis style of play didn't fit that style whatsoever, add to the fact that he was only having a so-so season.

With that said, the defense was the best performance by a best-on-best team I've ever seen. The offense was actually snakebit but think about this. Canada gave up only 1 one during the elimination games, and it was a trick breakaway "off the bench" play.
 
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Crosby2010

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Mar 4, 2023
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Just for kicks...based mostly on the camp, it seems like their 'B' team would have been...

Hall-Thornton-St.Louis
Marchand-Couture-Eberle
Ladd-E.Staal-Giroux
Lucic-J.Staal-Neal

Letang-Seabrook
Methot-Green
M.Staal-Boyle

Holtby
Fleury

Is that still a favorite? They aren't very fast, certainly. I don't know...it's probably close anyhow.

That team is pretty darn close to being a favourite in my opinion. Canada "B" as we would call them. You can add Corey Crawford in net. Holtby is probably no better than 3rd at that point on the pecking order. You still had Steve Mason who was good then too. Plenty of options. I don't know about their speed, I think they could get around alright. Not blazing speed, but Hall was fast, Couture not bad. Guys like Eberle and Marchand would at least be somewhat quick. Lots of muscle on that team though, does that translate into the big ice? May as well put Iginla as the 13th forward, he'd belong on that team. The defense has one mobile defenseman on each pairing.
 

Crosby2010

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Mar 4, 2023
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Let's take a look at his numbers.

5-0-0 +2

Healthy scratch one game.

I understand both points of view, but I favor Yzerman slightly for a couple reasons. First, performance wise he was a nothing-burger. I remember watching the tournament and other than a PP chance with Crosby he received little ice time and was invisible. At Least Kunitz put the dagger in Sweden's heart with that 3-0 goal, but I was madder that Kunitz was getting ice time and not even keeping up with the play. He certainly wasn't the worst pick on the team though.

Second, he did not fit the team dynamics and was certainly not a Babcock/Julien defense first puck possession at all cost team. They clearly wanted to cycle the puck in the offensive zone and worked like hell to get it back. St Louis style of play didn't fit that style whatsoever, add to the fact that he was only having a so-so season.

With that said, the defense was the best performance by a best-on-best team I've ever seen. The offense was actually snakebit but think about this. Canada gave up only 1 one during the elimination games, and it was a trick breakaway "off the bench" play.

I think someone mentioned this upthread a bit, but Recchi had trouble getting on Team Canada as well, possibly for the same reasons. 1991 and 1996 come to mind as years he had his best shots. Then 1998 he only gets on like St. Louis did because of an injury replacement. Kariya went down so Recchi got added. Recchi didn't do much in 1998 either. A couple of assists, and I can't remember big plays he made either. There is this idea that Canada doesn't take the playmaking wingers and that has deep roots to it. The thing is, Recchi was a good playoff performer in his career. Even late in his career. He was that classic 2nd banana that you loved. I just don't know if he adds much to a team that already has playmaking centres, and I think this is where St. Louis fell into as well. This was not a team that scored a ton either. They always seemed to have the puck and I remember plenty of scoring chances but I think this is where the big ice falls into play, there is never the scoring chances on the big ice quite like the NHL sized ice. You can argue Kunitz should have not been on the team and St. Louis fits great with Crosby but you can tell this team was carefully crafted by Babcock. I actually think Babcock had more say on the 2014 team than we think and that it wasn't all Yzerman.

In 2010 we were so stacked that we left off a 50 goal scorer and the guy who finished 2nd in the NHL in goals the year before. But that wasn't a hard team to pick. Most of us had a roster that was similar to the one eventually picked. By 2014 there were some changes and you had the bigger ice as well. It changes the dynamic a bit. I don't know, we won, and that is what matters the most I guess.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
9,651
5,264
It is obviously not the type of d-core you want to have a > 50% change of winning agains the field, but Emelin made team Russia, Orpik team USA.

Hard to see who would be favorite over it, the field would have been, maybe some would have thought Russian home court advantage...Radulov-Datsyuk-Kovalchuck-Malkin-Tarasenko-Ovechkin -Semin that a lot of firing power, lot of size. Varlamov-Bobrovsky can be solid.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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i can certainly see why he was pissed

if you are the main guy on your team and your coach/GM tells you there’s someone out there he’d rather have than you, i don’t know how you don’t take it personally. this isn’t like mike keenan not choosing dave poulin for his canada cup team. aging or not, this is a former MVP who had led his team to a cup; he was your captain, was only three seasons removed from a legit MVP-level season (he was my pick over perry and sedin in 2011), and was the reigning scoring champ. at the time of the trade, he was your leading scorer by 20 pts and you were a playoff team.

i’m not talking about what the classy thing to do was, or what the right thing to do was. i just mean, i get where he’s coming from.

at the level of player that MSL had been, even if by 2014 he was aging and falling off, you need to have the maniacal self belief that you’re good enough to help your team beat any other team in any other situation anytime. and he also knows he has almost every argument going in his favour. it’s a team built down the middle with almost no creativity and playmaking on the wing — remember it was in this tournament that jamie benn became jamie benn. and you’re martin st louis, who has pushed every center he’s ever played with to ridiculous heights: brad richards’ conn smythe, vinnie lecavalier’s brief stint as a true superstar, stamkos’ four year run as the best goalscorer in the game. and for a team that overvalues chemistry, they can’t find room for you and stamkos? a team that took kunitz and patrick sharp? who the previous olympics took the entire choker line of marleau - thornton - heatley?

remember that the offseason following the 2002 olympics, cujo walked. as a top guy at that level, i just don’t think you can hear that the guy steering your ship thinks there’s someone he’d rather have powering the boat than you. like imagine being patrick roy and finding out sakic and forsberg think hasek is better than you. in the context of a team trying to win it all at the absolute highest level of competition everyone has to have total trust and belief in each other or it just doesn’t work.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I think someone mentioned this upthread a bit, but Recchi had trouble getting on Team Canada as well, possibly for the same reasons. 1991 and 1996 come to mind as years he had his best shots. Then 1998 he only gets on like St. Louis did because of an injury replacement. Kariya went down so Recchi got added. Recchi didn't do much in 1998 either. A couple of assists, and I can't remember big plays he made either. There is this idea that Canada doesn't take the playmaking wingers and that has deep roots to it. The thing is, Recchi was a good playoff performer in his career. Even late in his career. He was that classic 2nd banana that you loved. I just don't know if he adds much to a team that already has playmaking centres, and I think this is where St. Louis fell into as well. This was not a team that scored a ton either. They always seemed to have the puck and I remember plenty of scoring chances but I think this is where the big ice falls into play, there is never the scoring chances on the big ice quite like the NHL sized ice. You can argue Kunitz should have not been on the team and St. Louis fits great with Crosby but you can tell this team was carefully crafted by Babcock. I actually think Babcock had more say on the 2014 team than we think and that it wasn't all Yzerman.

In 2010 we were so stacked that we left off a 50 goal scorer and the guy who finished 2nd in the NHL in goals the year before. But that wasn't a hard team to pick. Most of us had a roster that was similar to the one eventually picked. By 2014 there were some changes and you had the bigger ice as well. It changes the dynamic a bit. I don't know, we won, and that is what matters the most I guess.
CBC did a behind the scenes documentary about how Canada was picked in 2014. I haven't seen it in a decade but they clearly gave a fair amount of consideration to who Babcock wanted and he was involved in conversations. I remember them talking about a bubble guy who "Mike already has him on the team" and assumed it was Nash.

Recchi is a decent comparable and he was always an afterthought internationally. There isn't much runway for playmaking wingers in recent times on Canada though. A big fuss was made about prime Kariya internationally and he was a priority for Canada, but he was a more versatile offensive player (better goal scorer) and if we're honest.... a better player than St. Louis. Fleury was always picked for Canada as well, which is somewhat harder to explain other than Fleury's more gritty game appealing to the selectors, especially when he played internationally.
 
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Crosby2010

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Mar 4, 2023
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remember that the offseason following the 2002 olympics, cujo walked. as a top guy at that level, i just don’t think you can hear that the guy steering your ship thinks there’s someone he’d rather have powering the boat than you. like imagine being patrick roy and finding out sakic and forsberg think hasek is better than you. in the context of a team trying to win it all at the absolute highest level of competition everyone has to have total trust and belief in each other or it just doesn’t work.

I think this is why it is often mentioned that everyone has to check their egos at the door in these tournaments. Dale Hawerchuk got 100+ points every year and when Team Canada came calling in 1987 he was relegated to a checking role with the likes of Sutter, Propp, Tocchet, etc. He thrived though, and he was a very underrated part of that team. Still scored too. But at the end of the day when Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier are your centres you have to look at yourself and say that you'll just do anything to be part of the team. I think that this is the method St. Louis should have had. I can remember Brent Seabrook being on the 2010 team over someone like Mike Green. This is just months before the Hawks started winning Cups, and it made sense because Canada always picks the Seabrook types. He's well rounded and he is content to be down the pecking order. When he wasn't picked in 2014, which I thought he would be, I can remember him sort of shrugging and saying he'll enjoy the time off and be sitting on his couch watching his team win the gold medal.

I think St. Louis should have probably been thankful to be on the 2004 winning team, even picked for the 2006 team. Sure he could have also been on the 2010 team, but he is hardly alone in the players all-time that weren't there. How does Patrick Roy not get picked automatically in 1996? That's an example. Steve Yzerman did the right thing because he was being fair. St. Louis should have never taken it as a slight to him not thinking he believed in him. In 2009 there was a summer orientation camp and Yzerman was running that one too and picking the 2010 team. The 5 goalies on the list were: Brodeur, Luongo, Fleury, Ward and Mason. Osgood wasn't there despite this being Yzerman's old buddy in Detroit and the fact that Osgood had his best postseason ever. The guy that beat Osgood was named. It is what it is. I think Yzerman's teams had less of the old boys club theme to it and they were picked for the best and most thought out reasons. Cujo too should have checked his ego at the door. And to be honest, he had the starting opportunity to make sure no one else got in his net. But he allowed 5 goals in the opening game. This is a short tournament and not one where you have to "find" your rhythm. Quinn did the right thing.

CBC did a behind the scenes documentary about how Canada was picked in 2014. I haven't seen it in a decade but they clearly gave a fair amount of consideration to who Babcock wanted and he was involved in conversations. I remember them talking about a bubble guy who "Mike already has him on the team" and assumed it was Nash.

Recchi is a decent comparable and he was always an afterthought internationally. There isn't much runway for playmaking wingers in recent times on Canada though. A big fuss was made about prime Kariya internationally and he was a priority for Canada, but he was a more versatile offensive player (better goal scorer) and if we're honest.... a better player than St. Louis. Fleury was always picked for Canada as well, which is somewhat harder to explain other than Fleury's more gritty game appealing to the selectors, especially when he played internationally.

Kariya at the time was right up there as the best player in the game in 1997. Even by 2002 he was still probably the best left winger in the game although Naslund was in his 3 year stint at that time. But he was fast, he was a better goal scorer than St. Louis and everyone and their mother knew he was going to be Mario's winger on the left side. It just made sense. It is almost more of a surprise they passed on him in 2004. Yeah, Fleury was always that no-brainer on right wing. 1991, 1996, 1998, 2002. Only 2002 was when we weren't sure if he'd make it. Canada was never strong on the right side, but again, a bit better of a goal scorer than St. Louis, also still a good playmaker, and definitely had that needed sandpaper and grit to go along with it. Was well known as a big game guy on a choking team too. Fleury, or someone of his ilk, makes Team Canada routinely, even today. Is Brad Marchand a good example of a winger like Fleury that would be there? It may have been just 2016 for him, but we all had him on the 2018 and 2022 Olympic teams too.
 

Regal

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Mar 12, 2010
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Would it be akin to leaving Mitch Marner off in 2026? Ranks really high in scoring, playmaking first winger that doesn't necessarily score a lot of goals, not necessarily the big, hard hitting, forechecker type of wing.. but Marner is well regarded for PK, backchecking and in-zone defensive play.. although Giroux was kind of those things also and got left off.

I think it’s similar. And you run into a bit of the same problem with Marner in that he doesn’t necessarily fit with the best centres who have the puck on their sticks all the time. I think the big difference now is that Canada’s in a bit of a weird place where there isn’t that many elite scoring forwards in their prime outside of McDavid and MacKinnon so his talent likely wins out over team building.
 

Ralph Malfredsson

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i'd probably feel pretty slighted too if the GM I won the Art Ross for less than a year ago left me off a team

and I certainly wouldn't trust their judgment enough afterwards to want to continue playing for them
Me too man. I would have done exactly the same thing as MSL.
 
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