Confirmed with Link: [VAN/CAL] Canucks to acquire Lindholm (CAL) for Kuzmenko, Brzustewicz, Jurmo, 1st 2024, & Conditional 4th 2024

[Intangibos]

You know going into the playoffs I think we all had big concerns about our top 6. We have a great top 3 with Pettersson/Miller/Boeser, but no real second line to speak of. We tried to make Pettersson play as a one-man second line and it just didn't work.

Looking back, I hated the Kuzmenko trade at the time (not the Lindholm acquisition, but the "cap dump" of Kuzmenko) and in retrospect I think it looks much worse now. I saw a lot of posts here after the trade about it being a clear cap dump and "addition by subtraction", but I just don't see it. I heard a lot about how Tocchet didn't "trust" him, but he sure trusted Mikheyev with no goals in like 50 games to be stapled to Pettersson's wing. Unless Mikheyev is the best defensive winger in the league, or Kuzmenko is literally the worst defensive winger in the league, I think it was unbelievably foolish to dump Kuzmenko. Straight up Pejorative Slured. It created a massive gap in our forward lineup that was never filled.

We'll see if Kuzmeko has a poor season next year, but in Calgary he scored at a 40 goal/70 point pace over his 30 games there. We really missed his scoring and the lack of 2nd line wingers on this team was exposed to the point that we could barely muster 20 shots against a team with Nurse/Ceci playing in front of Skinner. Yikes.

If the trade doesn't happen they don't get past Nashville. Lindholm's contributions to actually winning were essential. Kuzmenko's overall skill set does not fit well with Tocchet's coaching system/style. Without Tocchet's system this team doesn't get past the first round. The team definitely needs more scoring wingers but not at the expense of every other part of the game. Boeser's 40+ goals were only part of the reason he was dominant this year. His overall game, board battles, defensive zone work etc took a significant leap this year. He, like Lindholm, is a complete player. Kuzmenko is not.

Could we not have acquired Lindholm without moving Kuzmenko? If Kuzmenko was indeed a cap dump, I would have preferred dumping Mikheyev. I'm not sure what our cap situation is/was though.

 

[iceburg]

Could we not have acquired Lindholm without moving Kuzmenko? If Kuzmenko was indeed a cap dump, I would have preferred dumping Mikheyev. I'm not sure what our cap situation is/was though.

Probably not. Mikheyev would be a pure cap dump. Kuzmenko was at least coming off a strong rookie season making other teams think that they could rejuvenate his play in a different system.

 

[IslandBeast]

You know going into the playoffs I think we all had big concerns about our top 6. We have a great top 3 with Pettersson/Miller/Boeser, but no real second line to speak of. We tried to make Pettersson play as a one-man second line and it just didn't work.

Looking back, I hated the Kuzmenko trade at the time (not the Lindholm acquisition, but the "cap dump" of Kuzmenko) and in retrospect I think it looks much worse now. I saw a lot of posts here after the trade about it being a clear cap dump and "addition by subtraction", but I just don't see it. I heard a lot about how Tocchet didn't "trust" him, but he sure trusted Mikheyev with no goals in like 50 games to be stapled to Pettersson's wing. Unless Mikheyev is the best defensive winger in the league, or Kuzmenko is literally the worst defensive winger in the league, I think it was unbelievably foolish to dump Kuzmenko. Straight up Pejorative Slured. It created a massive gap in our forward lineup that was never filled.

We'll see if Kuzmeko has a poor season next year, but in Calgary he scored at a 40 goal/70 point pace over his 30 games there. We really missed his scoring and the lack of 2nd line wingers on this team was exposed to the point that we could barely muster 20 shots against a team with Nurse/Ceci playing in front of Skinner. Yikes.


Could we not have acquired Lindholm without moving Kuzmenko? If Kuzmenko was indeed a cap dump, I would have preferred dumping Mikheyev. I'm not sure what our cap situation is/was though.

What will be really annoying is if Kuzmenko has 25-30 goals by the trade deadline next year and the flames move him for a 2nd++.

What ever happened to who cares if a player can play good defense as long as he is capable of potting you 30+ goals?

Lindholm was great but like you said, we were missing another top 6 piece.

Mikheyev..... Ugh

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

What will be really annoying is if Kuzmenko has 25-30 goals by the trade deadline next year and the flames move him for a 2nd++.

What ever happened to who cares if a player can play good defense as long as he is capable of potting you 30+ goals?

Lindholm was great but like you said, we were missing another top 6 piece.

Mikheyev..... Ugh

The league has changed.

A 30 goal scorer who is a massive liability in their own zone will hurt their team most nights. Just look at a guy like Ovechkin in recent years.

 

[Pure West]

What will be really annoying is if Kuzmenko has 25-30 goals by the trade deadline next year and the flames move him for a 2nd++.

What ever happened to who cares if a player can play good defense as long as he is capable of potting you 30+ goals?

Lindholm was great but like you said, we were missing another top 6 piece.

Mikheyev..... Ugh

We have just seen 2 brutally tight playoff series' where the margins were small. You're not going to go deep in the playoffs with passengers who are a liability in their own end. An injection of a little skill and some PP would have helped of course but my guess is Kuzy would have been mostly a PP part timer and getting 8 minutes a night at best this playoffs. It doesn't take much of an offensive slump to get stapled to the bench if you're that one-dimensional kind of player.

 

[ManVanFan]

What will be really annoying is if Kuzmenko has 25-30 goals by the trade deadline next year and the flames move him for a 2nd++.

What ever happened to who cares if a player can play good defense as long as he is capable of potting you 30+ goals?

Lindholm was great but like you said, we were missing another top 6 piece.

Mikheyev..... Ugh

There is still a ton of them out there.
Point 46g -16
Marchessault 42 g -2
Stamkos 40g -21
Vatrano 37g -20
Connor 34g -6
Nelson 34g -5
Suzuki 33g -14
Keller 33g -20
Horvat 33g -1
Toffoli 33g -6
Raymond 31g -12
Sharangovich 31g -29
Myron 31g -12
Ovi 31g -22
Palmieri 30g -16

 

[PuckMunchkin]

What will be really annoying is if Kuzmenko has 25-30 goals by the trade deadline next year and the flames move him for a 2nd++.

What ever happened to who cares if a player can play good defense as long as he is capable of potting you 30+ goals?

Lindholm was great but like you said, we were missing another top 6 piece.

Mikheyev..... Ugh

Does this sound like something Tocchet wants around?

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Game 7 was a perfect example of 'best defence, is a good offence'

Canucks had only a handful of shots while giving up 3 goals.

in the 3rd, Oilers had 2 shots, gave up 2 goals.

This is a scorers league, a team that can only defend, will lose close games, every time.

Also Kuz was not conceding goals at any abnormal rate, that is not why he was being scratched. That was completely fabricated around here.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Game 7 was a perfect example of 'best defence, is a good offence'

Canucks had only a handful of shots while giving up 3 goals.

in the 3rd, Oilers had 2 shots, gave up 2 goals.

This is a scorers league, a team that can only defend, will lose close games, every time.

Also Kuz was not conceding goals at any abnormal rate, that is not why he was being scratched. That was completely fabricated around here.

If you are ACTUALLY suggesting that he isnt awful defensively I dont think you quite understand what you are watching as far as players defensive responsibilities goes.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Also Kuz was not conceding goals at any abnormal rate, that is not why he was being scratched. That was completely fabricated around here.

He was conceding scoring opportunities left and right. That doesn't always translate into goals but basically neuters zone time and pressure in the offensive zone. He wasn't simply bad defensively but completely useless.

The reason he rebounded in Calgary is much like us last year: their season was done and they cheated offense. He'll likely thrive on any team that plays that way. Put him on say, Dallas, Vegas or even Colorado and he'll go right back to dragging his line down because they're constantly having to cover for his defensive gaffs.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

He was conceding scoring opportunities left and right. That doesn't always translate into goals but basically neuters zone time and pressure in the offensive zone. He wasn't simply bad defensively but completely useless.

The reason he rebounded in Calgary is much like us last year: their season was done and they cheated offense. He'll likely thrive on any team that plays that way. Put him on say, Dallas, Vegas or even Colorado and he'll go right back to dragging his line down because they're constantly having to cover for his defensive gaffs.

Kuz rebounded in Calgary because he's a good 28 year old player, further removed from an offseason of little skating, and a nasty injury, period. The Kadri line does not get together and discuss how to score while still losing games,

Fans can tell themselves whatever they want if it makes them feel better, but the effects were easy to predict then, and couldn't have been scripted any worse. Too many focus purely on Kuz stat line, rather than the impact to the team. Since the trade...

One of his linemates never scored again, literally..

EP didn't do much better, was eventually abandoned at center and moved to the wing

Both EP's wingers were scratched at some point in the playoffs.

The PP immediately fell off without Kuz, and failed to generate a shot through back to back clinching games, including a 5v3 and double minor...

Wingers with zero goals on the season, and even zero goals in their CAREER, were being scrambled into the lineup, without missing anyone from injury..


Holy fugg, the most obvious and realistic answer was right there all along

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Kuz rebounded in Calgary because he's a good 28 year old player, further removed from an offseason of little skating, and a nasty injury, period. The Kadri line does not get together and discuss how to score while still losing games,

Fans can tell themselves whatever they want if it makes them feel better, but the effects were easy to predict then, and couldn't have been scripted any worse. Too many focus purely on Kuz stat line, rather than the impact to the team. Since the trade...

One of his linemates never scored again, literally..

EP didn't do much better, was eventually abandoned at center and moved to the wing

Both EP's wingers were scratched at some point in the playoffs.

The PP immediately fell off without Kuz, and failed to generate a shot through back to back clinching games, including a 5v3 and double minor...

Wingers with zero goals on the season, and even zero goals in their CAREER, were being scrambled into the lineup, without missing anyone from injury..


Holy fugg, the most obvious and realistic answer was right there all along

He's good based on... a single season with a coach notorious for his all offense no defense structure? They don't have to discuss anything. Teams often cheat offense when they have nothing to play off except trying to rebound their career or up potential value.

Why are we making excuses for his offseason when everyone didn't have a problem? He wasn't injured coming into the year. He simply wasn't good.

You do realize we had to take him off the powerplay because he became a complete liability even when it actually worked, yes? Tocchet put him back on multiple occasion and nothing happened. Our powerplay fizzled out long before he was traded and he never sparked it.

Kuzmenko played more minutes with some combination of Pettersson, Miller and Boeser than anyone else all season. In that stretch of time he posted a dismal 8-13-21 in 43 games. To put that into perspective, Ilya Mikheyev had 10-13-23 in that same amount of games. You know, the guy we're all desperately ready to punt into the sun.

Bit of a coincidence he only turned his season around after being traded to a team whose season was finished and they could afford to play loose hockey.

If you're implying the answer to our scoring woes in the playoffs would have been keeping Kuzmenko, why didn't it work for 43 games prior? Nevermind the fact we couldn't have afforded Lindholm without moving his salary.

Don't get me wrong. I like Kuz and hope he can hit the ground running. That doesn't change the fact he can't play a lick of defense.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Whether you think Kuz would have helped or not is really beside the point. I think it's nuts to act like it was pure coincidence the teams offence elevatored up with him, and jumped off the roof after... but whatever.

The point is they traded one of their best wingers, specifically an EP winger, and didn't replace him. Be it Guentzel or whoever, they got nobody, and the problems we all saw, and agreed were real issues, continued the rest of the way, and into the playoffs, ultimately causing their exit.

They spent a hefty price, for a rental, but left some serious problems unattended to. Kinda defeated the purpose of acquiring Lindholm early enough to make additional moves. That's really what it boils down to, they half assed, when they should have full assed. Some say we were coached 'not to lose', well it looks like we "GMed not to lose' as well.

Also non playoff teams aren't all just out there playing pond hockey, and Kuz would prob suck at pond hockey anyway. Dude needs the boards, and a small rink.

 

[VanJack]

It's all a moot point with Kuzmenko. He wasn't Tocchet's kind of player, pure and simple. And he was on the books for a $5m cap hit this season and next.

They had to shed salary to secure Lindholm, and they're going to need Kuzmenko's cap room this off-season. I'm sure Allvin dangled Kuzmenko's name around the league in trade discussions, and took the best deal he could get.

I don't understand the recriminations now. If the Canucks hadn't acquired Lindholm and Zadorov, there's a chance they don't even get past Nashville; much less take the Oilers to seven games.

And then people would be complaining that Allvin did nothing at or before the TDL to help this team in its first legitimate trip to the post-season in almost a decade. Sometimes you just can't win.

 

[iceburg]

It's all a moot point with Kuzmenko. He wasn't Tocchet's kind of player, pure and simple. And he was on the books for a $5m cap hit this season and next.

They had to shed salary to secure Lindholm, and they're going to need Kuzmenko's cap room this off-season. I'm sure Allvin dangled Kuzmenko's name around the league in trade discussions, and took the best deal he could get.

I don't understand the recriminations now. If the Canucks hadn't acquired Lindholm and Zadorov, there's a chance they don't even get past Nashville; much less take the Oilers to seven games.

And then people would be complaining that Allvin did nothing at or before the TDL to help this team in its first legitimate trip to the post-season in almost a decade. Sometimes you just can't win.

I was considering posting something like this but now it would just be redundant. I agree with you on every point.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

The negative impact of losing Kuz was felt immediately, as the teams total offense cratered.

Now the ripple effects begin.. look no further than contract and trade talks.

I expect a lot of back tracking, and changes of tune, come November.

 

[DimitriL07]

That 1st and Bruz were worth what we got to see. It’s been forever since that feeling baby. Lindy and Zad were huge for us.

 

[Breakers]

The negative impact of losing Kuz was felt immediately, as the teams total offense cratered.

Now the ripple effects begin.. look no further than contract and trade talks.

I expect a lot of back tracking, and changes of tune, come November.

I think with Pettersson it was felt immediately

Regardless of defense he is extremely good at getting slot chances off and Pettersson is good at setting them up.

 

[VanJack]

When Kuzmenko was dealt, he had eight goals and 21 points through 43 games. So he was basically on pace for 15 goals and 40 points. Not nearly enough for a guy on the books for $5m.

I really don't care what he did in Calgary. Most of his goals and points came during garbage time when the Flamers were playing out a string. Not much different than the 2022-23 version of the Canucks who were basically a 'dead team skating' in the last half of the year.

One thing you have to say about Rutherford and Allvin. When they make a mistake, they don't let it fester. Privately they probably knew early last season that signing Kuzmenko to a two-year, $5 extension was a mistake.

It was the same with Studnicka, when they concluded he couldn't help them. So it was off to San Jose for a fairly decent return.

Canuck fans are used to living through contract nightmares for the likes of Eriksson, Beagle, Roussel, Schaller etc...etc. So it's refreshing to have a hockey ops department that admits its mistakes and takes action to do something about it.

 

[bossram]

The issue with Kuzmenko was not at all the Lindholm trade. That was good rental deal Allvin made to level up the team this season.

The issue was they lacked the foresight to move Kuzmenko at the 2023 deadline for an asset, rather than sign him to a contract that would inevitably tank his value simultaneously while his production craters from shooting regression.

 

[Nucker101]

I like Kuz but he was just a bad fit with Tocchet

 

[HairyKneel]

The negative impact of losing Kuz was felt immediately, as the teams total offense cratered.

Now the ripple effects begin.. look no further than contract and trade talks.

I expect a lot of back tracking, and changes of tune, come November.

lol what a strange post.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

I think with Pettersson it was felt immediately

Regardless of defense he is extremely good at getting slot chances off and Pettersson is good at setting them up.

True story, EP line was totally lost without him. Kuz did a lot of the heavy lifting regarding puck protection, and would break the cycle by actually going to the net. 64 career goals, and at least 50 of them are from inside or on top of the crease. It's nothing but perimeter passing since.

Management also loved Kuz. They targeted him, wined and dined, held him through a playoff miss and swiftly extended him. Alvin is also very high on Lekkermaki.

Whatever people are envisioning, when they think of a "Tocchet type', I wouldn't hold my breath on whoever ends up as Kuz' replacement fitting that mold at all. Most likely, we end up with a worse player, at a higher cap hit, and have to spend further assets to get him. On top of that, whatever the cost of dumping Mik.