Commercialization ruining minor hockey

[BruinDust]

But see that's it - I went through a whole winter session with a pretty good coach (in a group). Half the time there was no puck involved - just skating and edges. And it really helped me. I mean it helped coming from a low bar, but my skating improved significantly - and nothing I ever would have learned just playing games.

So that's where even if you're 1 16 year old who with no path to pro hockey - there's still a lot of benefit to working on fundamentals. Maybe you have a bad coach who doesn't teach those things, but a good coach who does is gold.

That makes sense. And I do agree with you that there are skating fundamentals you can't work on in a game. For example, my backwards cross-overs left-to-right have never gotten back to what they were when I played minor hockey. Only practice focusing on that skill would I be able to improve upon it.

I found once we got to that say 15-16 year old level, the practices didn't involve much if any of this kind of work. I recall it being there in the practices at lower age groups (not novice but upper atom and peewee). Granted they did now have to spend some time on body-checking and learning how to take a hit. I found the practices were generic, repetitive, unorganized, just not well done. Almost no individual instruction. And from one coach to another, they didn't change much.

I guess all of that to say the quality of coaching and the quality of the practices plays a big part in their overall usefulness. And truth be told, that brief time coaching high school I probably ran my practices exactly the same as the coaches I had, so I shouldn't throw too many stones.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Call it whatever you want. Whether it's games within a minor hockey org (house league) or travelling It's still a bunch of average skilled players who "should be" playing for fun. We had travel games and travel teams too, they were competitive games where you played as hard as you could to win and from bantam age onward, all those games were body contact. But it was still just a bunch of average 14-18 year olds playing a game for fun and being around their friends at the end of the day. We had two guys who were exceptional and one got a cup of coffee in the show. It wasn't a team full of exceptional players working towards a hockey future.

I coached a local high school team one year. Those kids played very hard in competitive games, full body contact. But not one of them had any chance of a future in the sport, just average kids playing a game. A few of them played U17/U18 AAA level. Just average kids and when the game was over, it was over. If they lost miserably, I wasn't about to bag skate them at their regular Tuesday practice. I tried to keep ice time as even as possible and cut my bench only when absolutely necessary.

But you are right, it was a long time ago, and clearly things have changed. And not for the better. I talk to parents in other sports and it fits what you are saying. Goes back to my original point, society has changed the emphasis on youth sports from something to do for fun and to socialize with your peers, to something all about ego (parents and child) and an unrealistic end goal. I guess when you have a commercial cottage industry telling far too many parents that their kid has a future in a sport just to bilk those parents of a lot of money, this is what you get.



Basketball and Volleyball were like this where/when I grew up. Hockey, soccer and baseball you could play until 18 regardless of skill level.

I think most kids are playing for exact reasons you are mentioning here. My daughter is only 10, so have not experienced anything with the older kids. Most kids playing realize they are not going to get a scholarship or go pro. But not sure what this has to do with the argument they need more games and less practice time. I guess it all depends on the length of the practices for my kid's team it is 1 hour practices twice per week, which is not a lot of time. Sounds like what you want is for everything to simply be "organized" pick-up games that have standings and a coach just to be on the bench.

 

[BruinDust]

I think most kids are playing for exact reasons you are mentioning here. My daughter is only 10, so have not experienced anything with the older kids. Most kids playing realize they are not going to get a scholarship or go pro. But not sure what this has to do with the argument they need more games and less practice time. I guess it all depends on the length of the practices for my kid's team it is 1 hour practices twice per week, which is not a lot of time. Sounds like what you want is for everything to simply be "organized" pick-up games that have standings and a coach just to be on the bench.

For 10 year olds I wouldn't. There still needs to be some practice to work on fundamentals (although I'd still say they would be better of with a 2:1 games ratio same as I experienced growing up playing at that relative age). I can see 2:1 practice in your squirt and novice age but include more scrimmages within practice for them.

But for the average minor player say ages 15-18, that is pretty much exactly what I am saying.

And here's the other part, if a minor hockey player age 15-18 truly desires improvement and gets a lot out of an enjoy practices, in today's hockey environment, there are options to do that outside of the auspices of minor hockey orgs. That cottage industry didn't exist (at least in my neck of the woods) back in the mid 1990s. Neither did the private club market. It was local minor hockey (with a bit of high school) or nothing.

I just think if you put more focus on playing games vs. practice for your average 15-18 year old, you'll keep more of them in the system and more of them continuing to enjoy playing the sport into their adult years. You'll never keep them all, but for the health of the sport the powers-that-be need to look at ways to keep the average 15-18 year-olds participating. Especially now with less kids playing sports overall. My hometown once had a thriving men's broomball league, adult softball had a big following. That's all fading away. Young people just aren't interested. What happens to the adult rec game if we keep losing a lot of the average 15-18 year olds and only retain the higher level players? Same thing probably. Seems like (in some parts of NA at least), this sport is headed down the path of a sport for the 1%ers, and it's not just due to cost and time commitment.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I think it is a lot more than simply too many practices and not enough games. Guess we will just have to agree to disagree. For our league there is a huge drop in the number of teams from 12U to 14U. Just think that is a natural progression. And, I think for most it is 2 practices per week 2 games per week. At least around here. 1 saturday, 1 sunday. Sometimes our team had a double-header, but that is the exception. Either a previous league game was canceled and we have to get it in. OR, a team has ice available and we want to pick up an extra game.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I think it is a lot more than simply too many practices and not enough games. Guess we will just have to agree to disagree. For our league there is a huge drop in the number of teams from 12U to 14U. Just think that is a natural progression. And, I think for most it is 2 practices per week 2 games per week. At least around here. 1 saturday, 1 sunday. Sometimes our team had a double-header, but that is the exception. Either a previous league game was canceled and we have to get it in. OR, a team has ice available and we want to pick up an extra game.

You absolutely want to keep as many kids in minor hockey as you can (or at least I do). I think a lot of kids who drop out around this age kind of regret it later in life.

But it's pretty understandable too. U14 is 12 and 13 year olds. Your body is changing, you're entering into junior high. More options like school sports open up. School work starts getting a little more challenging. This is often where hitting is introduced (I bailed hockey on learning hitting would be the next year).

 

[patnyrnyg]

There is another league in the area, AHF. They have a presence in Jersey, but also the entire east coast and midwest. I feel like they have more teams at the older divisions than the NJ league, but haven't looked too closely. I think hitting is a big part of it. I had plenty of friends who tried football for a season, and just weren't into the hitting. So, it was a one and done, if they even lasted the one. The other thing is ice times. Our 14U team practiced one night at 9pm and the other at 8:10. By the time you get off ice, changed, home, shower. A 9 o'clock practice kids not getting to bed until after 11. Some parents have a problem with that when they need to wake up for school. Here 14U is 13 and 14 year olds.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

So just speaking for Edmonton here...

We definitely have "house league" of federation hockey that goes up to U18 for all levels, even a U21 rec league. Now I will definitely say that starting at U15 enrollment does drop off noticeably - probably for all the reasons mentioned here. But it very much exists and is still relatively popular.



Oh sure - I've seen lots of practices that spend to much time working on strategy and tactics, and not enough time working on fundamentals. But this kind of goes back to the original complaint - if all you're worried about is playing games, then tactics can make big difference (up to a point). A lousy skater who knows where to stand might be a better player then a good skater who is just an uncontrollable rover out on the ice.

And don't get me started on lengthy time spent just standing around explaining drills.

But I still 100% disagree with the idea of "don't bother practicing, just play games".

Right, I’m just saying I understand that take a bit more based on my experience- if don’t right, practices are great. But the way they went for me, honestly, I don’t blame anyone who thinks more games and fewer practices woulda been better.

 

[WarriorofTime]

So just speaking for Edmonton here...

We definitely have "house league" of federation hockey that goes up to U18 for all levels, even a U21 rec league. Now I will definitely say that starting at U15 enrollment does drop off noticeably - probably for all the reasons mentioned here. But it very much exists and is still relatively popular.

Do they have High School Hockey in Edmonton?

 

[WarriorofTime]

You absolutely want to keep as many kids in minor hockey as you can (or at least I do). I think a lot of kids who drop out around this age kind of regret it later in life.

It's pretty normal for all sports, kids play a wide variety of sports when they are young and then they consolidate down as they get older to maybe the 1-2 sports they like the most/are the best at, so the numbers dwindle. I don't think there's a sport out there that doesn't follow this pattern.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Do they have High School Hockey in Edmonton?

Nope.

It's pretty normal for all sports, kids play a wide variety of sports when they are young and then they consolidate down as they get older to maybe the 1-2 sports they like the most/are the best at, so the numbers dwindle. I don't think there's a sport out there that doesn't follow this pattern.

So - hockey in Canada is kind of different. It's not just some sport that people play (and probably it should be, but that's another discussion). For those that play it it is fairly all-consuming.

But so what that means, is when kids hit that 12-13-14 window they do "why the f*** am I spending all this time on one sport" if they think they're not going to make something of it.

Which like I said is probably not that healthy - you should be able to play a sport just to have fun and not worry you're going to turn pro. But I don't think the drop in hockey enrollment is because kids are choosing between hockey and basketball (or whatever).

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Nope.



So - hockey in Canada is kind of different. It's not just some sport that people play (and probably it should be, but that's another discussion). For those that play it it is fairly all-consuming.

But so what that means, is when kids hit that 12-13-14 window they do "why the f*** am I spending all this time on one sport" if they think they're not going to make something of it.

Which like I said is probably not that healthy - you should be able to play a sport just to have fun and not worry you're going to turn pro. But I don't think the drop in hockey enrollment is because kids are choosing between hockey and basketball (or whatever).

Yeah in Canada, compare house league hockey to house league soccer. House league hockey will usually be played all weekend long and if your kid makes a Select team, then it’s 2 other nights on top of that. Not to mention house league hockey is taken crazy seriously. There are playoffs, championships and then regional championships in which a team might travel for a weekend. I’ve seen nutty parent/coaches use their knowledge of the local system (via player drafting) to stack teams just so their kid can attend stuff like this. In one extreme case there was a dad/coach that was basically trying to turn his son’s house league team into a rep/travel team (asking parents for money for side games/tourneys etc). Some of the parents ended up shooting him down.

Compare that to my kid’s house league soccer team. Nobody cares. The parents are there to just enjoy the outdoors. There’s no playoff at the end. You might not even have a coach, but instead a rotating cast of parents who are there to just cycle through lines. Very few practices. Usually on a weeknight so that it doesn’t interfere with weekends. Sometimes you don’t have a ref and a parent or coach fills in. It’s absolutely night and day.

If your kid goes on a one week trip to Jamaica during hockey season, he drastically lets the team down. In soccer if you do the same thing, nobody cares.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Yeah in Canada, compare house league hockey to house league soccer. House league hockey will usually be played all weekend long and if your kid makes a Select team, then it’s 2 other nights on top of that. Not to mention house league hockey is taken crazy seriously. There are playoffs, championships and then regional championships in which a team might travel for a weekend. I’ve seen nutty parent/coaches use their knowledge of the local system (via player drafting) to stack teams just so their kid can attend stuff like this. In one extreme case there was a dad/coach that was basically trying to turn his son’s house league team into a rep/travel team (asking parents for money for side games/tourneys etc). Some of the parents ended up shooting him down.

Compare that to my kid’s house league soccer team. Nobody cares. The parents are there to just enjoy the outdoors. There’s no playoff at the end. You might not even have a coach, but instead a rotating cast of parents who are there to just cycle through lines. Very few practices. Usually on a weeknight so that it doesn’t interfere with weekends. Sometimes you don’t have a ref and a parent or coach fills in. It’s absolutely night and day.

If your kid goes on a one week trip to Jamaica during hockey season, he drastically lets the team down. In soccer if you do the same thing, nobody cares.

So I think I mentioned this anecdote before - my one kid played one year of high level soccer (at age 8-9). That was "serious business". I've spoken with other serious soccer parents as well and gotten the same impression.

But discussing "house league" - in soccer it'd be called community league soccer, versus federation hockey. But anyways - it's the level where everyone plays no matter what. Yes, soccer is incredibly chill. No travel tournaments, no dress codes.

But I mean from my limited time as a soccer coach (only at young ages) - that can be a little frustrating too. By all means don't skip your trip to Jamaica because of a soccer practice - but maybe do take your kid to practice even if they don't "feel like it".

I mean there's a reason why Canada is one of (if not) the leading nation for producing hockey players, and absolutely terrible at producing soccer players - NOT that the main purpose of youth sports is producing pro athletes.

For federation hockey - it's usually expected you'll organize an out-of-town tournament for the team. It's not required, it's up to the team - but almost all teams do it. It's certainly not because you can't find local competition, but just for the experience of it. I've certainly seen different coaches try to impose different pre-game expectations, either in terms of dress code (thankfully not suit-and-tie, but maybe a collared shirt or a team jacket), and/or ready to do a pre-game warm-up. I don't think anyone will lose it if you're out of town for holidays, but yes there will be mutterings if your kid misses a lot of practices/games over the year about not taking it seriously.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

So I think I mentioned this anecdote before - my one kid played one year of high level soccer (at age 8-9). That was "serious business". I've spoken with other serious soccer parents as well and gotten the same impression.

But discussing "house league" - in soccer it'd be called community league soccer, versus federation hockey. But anyways - it's the level where everyone plays no matter what. Yes, soccer is incredibly chill. No travel tournaments, no dress codes.

But I mean from my limited time as a soccer coach (only at young ages) - that can be a little frustrating too. By all means don't skip your trip to Jamaica because of a soccer practice - but maybe do take your kid to practice even if they don't "feel like it".

I mean there's a reason why Canada is one of (if not) the leading nation for producing hockey players, and absolutely terrible at producing soccer players - NOT that the main purpose of youth sports is producing pro athletes.

For federation hockey - it's usually expected you'll organize an out-of-town tournament for the team. It's not required, it's up to the team - but almost all teams do it. It's certainly not because you can't find local competition, but just for the experience of it. I've certainly seen different coaches try to impose different pre-game expectations, either in terms of dress code (thankfully not suit-and-tie, but maybe a collared shirt or a team jacket), and/or ready to do a pre-game warm-up. I don't think anyone will lose it if you're out of town for holidays, but yes there will be mutterings if your kid misses a lot of practices/games over the year about not taking it seriously.

Oh yeah once my son commits to any kind of activity, we take it seriously. I mean, he loves team sports and we paid for him to be there. Plus there’s a bunch of other benefits that don’t involve competitive drive.

And I could’ve really used any example of a sport that’s not hockey in Canada. Sure we have high level kids’ soccer, baseball, football teams etc. Just that a lot of those sports at the lower levels seem more fun and casual, and for the most part they don’t gobble up a kid’s whole weekend. So it may not be such a surprise when a kid hits 14 or 15 and he wants to hang out with his buddies on the weekend instead of playing hockey.

I also wonder about my own son’s expectations at age 12. I mean, I know he’s not even going to come close to making the CHL, but does he realize that? Maybe when kids figure out that they’re not as good as they thought they were, they’re more inclined to quit the game? Especially considering the time commitment you mentioned.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I also wonder about my own son’s expectations at age 12. I mean, I know he’s not even going to come close to making the CHL, but does he realize that? Maybe when kids figure out that they’re not as good as they thought they were, they’re more inclined to quit the game? Especially considering the time commitment you mentioned.

So I winder this about my son. He's 13, going on 14. He's CHL (well WHL) draft eligible next year.

He's good enough he can at least imagine himself going to the CHL. But honestly even still - his draft odds are what: 1 in 100? 1 in 200?

So on the one hand I've heard stories of kids that weren't drafted - immediately quit hockey. Not necessarily the most mature reaction, but we're talking about kids.

On the other hand just because you're not CHL drafted doesn't mean you can't make a CHL team, doesn't mean you can't have a long career. But the odds get longer the older you go.

I've never, ever emphasized the idea that the idea of playing hockey is to go pro. I always stick with "I just enjoy watching you play". Which is absolutely true, I just want to support him in going as far as he can.

But at what point does he say "enough"? Personally I have no idea. It'll come at some point I'm sure.

Actually - I do want him to keep playing to age 16, to have him come out to a rec league game with me just one time. That's my one wish of his hockey career.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Nope.



So - hockey in Canada is kind of different. It's not just some sport that people play (and probably it should be, but that's another discussion). For those that play it it is fairly all-consuming.

But so what that means, is when kids hit that 12-13-14 window they do "why the f*** am I spending all this time on one sport" if they think they're not going to make something of it.

Which like I said is probably not that healthy - you should be able to play a sport just to have fun and not worry you're going to turn pro. But I don't think the drop in hockey enrollment is because kids are choosing between hockey and basketball (or whatever).

Gotcha, yeah, just seems like a regional difference. In my locale, high school hockey is sort of the default "normie path" for kids who play (sometimes having played at what could be considered pretty high levels) but aren't trying to necessarily "go anywhere" with hockey. So House League wouldn't really make sense as that's where all those kids (plus A and many AA kids) would end up. They're kind of doing their own thing, one very large and affluent high school for instance, has four varsity teams (the top team is a perennial state champion favorite) and a JV team, so there's quite a range to play at depending on a player's level. That is unusual though, I think only a few other schools have more than one varsity team.. and some teams combine to form a single team of players from multiple areas. They aren't part of the same high school athletic association as other sports in the state, and it's considered a "club" sport technically.

So that's a normal destination spot for a player that isn't trying to play Juniors or into NCAA or Professionally. Obviously if you did, you'd go the U15/U16 AAA -> U18AAA or Juniors then Juniors then NCAA path and not bother with high school. But for everyone else, it's a chance to play with your friends, represent your school, compete in a state tournament etc. A kid that opts to stay in U18AA may give themselves a better chance of playing ACHA in college (a regular tuition paying student, but playing a club sport). ACHA will also draw from AAA teams and the low level junior teams. A good high school player will have a shot at an ACHA team as well, especially in the lower divisions.

For kids on the "elite path" the USNTDP is certainly the gold standard if you can snag one of those magic 25 spots. For others, it's a bit more regional. The High School Hockey I described is different in a place like Minnesota. Top kids around the country will also go into Prep Schools which are feeders into places like USHL and NCAA, but are very different than the high school hockey I described above. Jumping right into Juniors at age 16 is very rare outside of the USNTDP, but also not unheard of. Many kids stay in AAA, some peel off to Juniors at 17, some stay on through that season (and will graduate high school in their locale) and then may end up playing Juniors in the NAHL, a Canadian Junior A league or one of the other various Junior Leagues around in the USA. Some still (especially in Michigan) go up to Canada and play Major Juniors there.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Gotcha, yeah, just seems like a regional difference. In my locale, high school hockey is sort of the default "normie path" for kids who play (sometimes having played at what could be considered pretty high levels) but aren't trying to necessarily "go anywhere" with hockey. So House League wouldn't really make sense as that's where all those kids (plus A and many AA kids) would end up. They're kind of doing their own thing, one very large and affluent high school for instance, has four varsity teams (the top team is a perennial state champion favorite) and a JV team, so there's quite a range to play at depending on a player's level. That is unusual though, I think only a few other schools have more than one varsity team.. and some teams combine to form a single team of players from multiple areas. They aren't part of the same high school athletic association as other sports in the state, and it's considered a "club" sport technically.

It's totally regional. Even within Canada - growing up in Winnipeg high school hockey was a "thing". It wasn't a development path - you weren't going from high school hockey to junior, then the pros - but if you were that one step below you went to play for your school in front of your friends. And it was still very high level hockey. Kind of like you could just barely make AA hockey, but decided you weren't going any further than that.

But in Edmonton it simply doesn't exist. Same with most of Canada.